"Operation Exodus"?

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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by Ebon on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:19 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:It just got me thinking, couldn't the community have organized itself in a manner that doesn't include forcing one person's will on another person? Where a person can live their life, as long as it does not conflict with another's ability to do the same, in peace?

Frankly, no. Or, at least, we've never yet managed it and I doubt our ability to ever do so.

The problem with groups like this is that they inevitibly withdraw from society and while that might sound fine in itself, it leads to a kind of group-think called "incestuous amplification". What that means is that a group of people talking only to those who agree with them ends up believing a far more extreme version of their original ideas. After six months or so, they go from "we'll just sit here away from the sinners" to "we should take over and get the sinners ourselves" (simplified to make the point). When you have a lot of incredibly paranoid people (and Americans are senselessly paranoid about government in the first place) arming themselves, it's a pretty fair bet that someone's going to get hurt.

Look, you know I'm not in favour of disarming the populace but that drunk at the end of the bar, the one who thinks that Mr Pateel who runs the deli is an al Queda informer? Yeah, I think disarming him might be a pretty good idea. I know your feelings, all, but by and large, these aren't heroic everymen standing up to a tyrannical authority. They're paranoid lunatics looking for an excuse to cap people they disapprove of.
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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by gillyflower on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:26 pm

There was a whole lot of that in the South within my lifetime.

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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:46 pm

Ebon wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I don't think so. I don't have the army running around shooting at me.

Now.

And people call me paranoid...

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you....Evil Grin

Really, I was not saying that sometime in the future the army might come and get you. I was pointing to historical precedent that in the past armies have come and got people. As I have said repeatedly, our government is mostly benign. However, what keeps it benign is that it draws its power from the people it governs. If you take steps to separate that link, then the government becomes something you have to follow, instead of something that gains power from you.

Every decision that is made dictating behavior is a step towards severing this link. Regardless if it is about abortion, gay marriage, gun control, buying liquor on Sundays, or countless others.

Ebon wrote:
Frankly, no. Or, at least, we've never yet managed it and I doubt our ability to ever do so.

Well, we can't unring the bell. It was just a moment of daydreaming. But like they say, wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.

Ebon wrote:
The problem with groups like this is that they inevitibly withdraw from society and while that might sound fine in itself, it leads to a kind of group-think called "incestuous amplification". What that means is that a group of people talking only to those who agree with them ends up believing a far more extreme version of their original ideas. After six months or so, they go from "we'll just sit here away from the sinners" to "we should take over and get the sinners ourselves" (simplified to make the point). When you have a lot of incredibly paranoid people (and Americans are senselessly paranoid about government in the first place) arming themselves, it's a pretty fair bet that someone's going to get hurt.

That is exactly why I am here. I get enough agreement in daily life. You guys have minds of your own, and are not afraid to disagree with me. I love ya for it. I really do.

Ebon wrote:
Look, you know I'm not in favour of disarming the populace but that drunk at the end of the bar, the one who thinks that Mr Pateel who runs the deli is an al Queda informer? Yeah, I think disarming him might be a pretty good idea. I know your feelings, all, but by and large, these aren't heroic everymen standing up to a tyrannical authority. They're paranoid lunatics looking for an excuse to cap people they disapprove of.

The problem is, it is a slippery slope. First you disarm the person that you all agree should be. Then you disarm the person that most of you agree should be. Then you disarm the person that some of you agree should be. It carries on until all most all of the people are disarmed. Then everyone whines about how unfair the decisions that that group makes, but it doesn't matter, because they have all the guns and they can enforce their decisions. If history has shown us nothing it is that no matter how peaceful you are, those who pound their swords into plowshares will plow for those that do not.

all
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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by Ottr on Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:01 am

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Always a good idea.

I grew up with the concept that you always had at least a month on hand. That was par for the course in the more rural areas I grew up in/live in now. Heating oil, food, water. You don't really know if you will not be able to get out. This winter really just reinforced that. There actually were times that we couldn't get anywhere for over a week.

I grew up in a farming community in southeastern Wisconsin. From little on the idea that we needed to be stocked for the winter was as normal as the sun rising. Canning, butchering, and hunting was all a large part of growing up.
My husband and I moved north, further into the woods almost 10 years ago now and that habit of being well stocked has served us well. I can’t count how many times the power has gone out from tree’s knocking down the lines, or the snow piling up the sides of the house making travel impossible (except maybe by snowmobile). So, I can definitely relate here.

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Likewise, my thing with having weapons around. I agree with almost every that is said about them. I think that the world would be a better place if no one ever picked them up again. But they will. I have had to call the police a few times in my life, and where I live it took them over 30 minutes to get here! What if I really, really needed them? I just figured that as long as I can be threatened with weapons, I might as well have and learn to use them myself.

I get crap for my views, but am pretty much on my own anyway. I get a bit touchy when people start regulating things.

all

I can see two sides of the issue here. When I lived on the farm in Wi. with my ex husband, we didn’t have guns in the house. My reasoning to him was the kids were toddlers and I didn’t want any accidents. In this case it was a good thing because when he totally lost his control in a drunken rage, it took 15-20 minutes for the cops to get to the farm. Had he had a gun, I don’t believe I would have gotten away with just being kicked around and strangled in those 15 mins.
On the flip side of this, after we split, I honestly believe that had I not gotten a gun, and informed him that I was armed, he would have had no problems waltzing into the house and finishing the job.
So, I see the immense value of the right to bear arms, yet I also see the value of keeping these arms from unstable individuals. It’s a fine line, but I believe a necessary one.
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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:07 pm

Ottr wrote:
I can see two sides of the issue here. When I lived on the farm in Wi. with my ex husband, we didn’t have guns in the house. My reasoning to him was the kids were toddlers and I didn’t want any accidents. In this case it was a good thing because when he totally lost his control in a drunken rage, it took 15-20 minutes for the cops to get to the farm. Had he had a gun, I don’t believe I would have gotten away with just being kicked around and strangled in those 15 mins.
On the flip side of this, after we split, I honestly believe that had I not gotten a gun, and informed him that I was armed, he would have had no problems waltzing into the house and finishing the job.
So, I see the immense value of the right to bear arms, yet I also see the value of keeping these arms from unstable individuals. It’s a fine line, but I believe a necessary one.

I agree, but don't realistically see a way that we can keep guns out of the hands of unstable individuals. The only thing we could do is keep them out of the hands of people that were interested in following the law.

Really that is why I am against gun control. It doesn't work. It regulates legally obtained guns, but not the guy in the corner bar who doesn't give a crap about following the law anyway. People who buy from him aren't exactly walking into Cabela's asking for the gun counter.

I'd be all in favor of gun control if it actually worked.

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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by Ottr on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:05 am

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I'd be all in favor of gun control if it actually worked.

LoL! Use both hands when you aim … maybe?

I see where you’re coming from though, and I don’t have an answer for the dude sitting on the corner selling guns to every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks through.
Other than making an effort to enforce the laws we have already on felons owning guns.
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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:29 am

From http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#Crime%20and%20Self%20Defense :


* Florida adopted a
right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics
predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National
Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:



"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)



* When the law went
into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all
arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees.
Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4
crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes
resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992
because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them.
(13)(15)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:




Florida

United States

homicide rate

-36%

-0.4%

firearm homicide rate

-37%

+15%

handgun homicide rate

-41%

+24%

(3)


* 221,443
concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987
and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes
committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998,
nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder
shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not
charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

*
As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have
been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's
life. (7)

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Re: "Operation Exodus"?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:57 pm

Ottr wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I'd be all in favor of gun control if it actually worked.

LoL! Use both hands when you aim … maybe?

I see where you’re coming from though, and I don’t have an answer for the dude sitting on the corner selling guns to every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks through.
Other than making an effort to enforce the laws we have already on felons owning guns.

That would be nice.
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