Thin skinned

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Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:46 pm

As some of you may know, and the rest will if they read this, I'm on a bunch of interfaith forums. As of late however, there seems to be a lot of whinning about not being "nice". I always try to act in a civil manner, but that does not mean I respond without emotion or conviction in my points, nor do I abandon sarcasam or humour.

This forums seems to the be the exception to the rule, so I ask why is that? Why are other people so concerned with being "nice", agreeing with everything someone else says, because it might be rude to disagree, except when someone disagrees with the concensus? Is sarcasam too mean a method of expressing a point, are people so sensitive that disagreement is mistaken for attack?

People need to toughen up! For the love of the gods, this is teh internets people, grow a pair!

Venting is good. Very Happy

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:02 pm

It may be impolite to mention that the emperor is wearing no clothes, but at some point you just have to say that if that thing lands in my coffee I'm cutting it off.

Courtesy and honesty must be balanced. Courtesy can frequently become the enemy of clarity. As I once pointed out to a female friend, only single straight women will notice if the dress makes you look fat; everyone else will be reacting to how slutty it looks. I had already heard several of our mutual friends having the "OMG did you see!" conversations about said dress, but they had all answered her so politely as to not let her know the fact you could count the pores on the nipples through it, although black, it concealed a little less than body paint.

She may have died of embarrassment when I told her, but it was weeks to months before she stopped getting mad about the number of people who let her walk around in it without telling her.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:28 pm

Many women are taught young to be people pleasers and also if someone is mean to them, it is their fault and they weren't "nice" enough. It sometimes takes years to overcome that.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:42 pm

So why did this one get dumped?

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:46 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:So why did this one get dumped?

Juh? Question

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:47 pm

It's in the basket, aka the trash can. I just wondered why?

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:56 pm

I didn't notice that! Yes, is there a reason that it is in the basket? Did someone put it there or is it there so we can vent?

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:17 pm

gillyflower wrote:I didn't notice that! Yes, is there a reason that it is in the basket? Did someone put it there or is it there so we can vent?

I actually started it here, I thought this was where odds and ends went.

I totally missed that this was a mod only board.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:49 pm

Hee!

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:59 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Hee!

You laugh when you could make yourself useful and move it somewhere else Rolling Eyes Wink

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:02 am

Do I need to move it? I thought you had the ability to move it???

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:10 am

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Do I need to move it? I thought you had the ability to move it???

Really? I'll have to try that out. Embarassed

Yup, it worked.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:37 am

Yay!. I didn't want to put my hands all over your stuff. Didn't want to get that personal.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by P_Synthesis on Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:53 am

John T Mainer wrote:It may be impolite to mention that the emperor is wearing no clothes, but at some point you just have to say that if that thing lands in my coffee I'm cutting it off.

If I may say so -- liking the phraseology.

Gorm_Sionnach, any links you could provide to the kind of conversations you mean?

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:21 pm

P_Synthesis wrote:
John T Mainer wrote:It may be impolite to mention that the emperor is wearing no clothes, but at some point you just have to say that if that thing lands in my coffee I'm cutting it off.

If I may say so -- liking the phraseology.

Gorm_Sionnach, any links you could provide to the kind of conversations you mean?

I'm kind of loath to link to others forums, especially when I'm having a disagreement with the management (much of which is behind closed doors[pm]) their in. But...

The whole thread basically

There is however the distinct possibility that I am an insensitive curmudgeon, I have yet to rule that out. Twisted Evil

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by P_Synthesis on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:33 pm

Got a little way into the thread then the link mysteriously stopped working... probably should have halted at Byron Katie! Rolling Eyes

From what I saw...
I'll be honest, the Lighthouse admin guy was very very oversensitive IMO. His problem is you don't agree with him... well ok. And? Meanwhile the Stoic guy (who also doesn't mischaracterize Stoicism, which is nice) was on the money about the misuse of 'guru power'.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:05 am

Life is too short to be kind to trolls. Kindergarten is over, you don't have to invite all the kids to your birthday party any more. Its Ok to listen to someone babble absolute balderdash and call them on it. Some people really don't have a point. Some arguments really don't have any merit, and no possible combination of postulates could shore them up. Its OK to point and laugh.

You can be nice again once you've let off a little of the pressure in the brain that their words abuse so terribly.

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:18 am

John T Mainer wrote:Life is too short to be kind to trolls. Kindergarten is over, you don't have to invite all the kids to your birthday party any more. Its Ok to listen to someone babble absolute balderdash and call them on it. Some people really don't have a point. Some arguments really don't have any merit, and no possible combination of postulates could shore them up. Its OK to point and laugh.

You can be nice again once you've let off a little of the pressure in the brain that their words abuse so terribly.

Maybe we are just too hard; it has been rather frigid out as of late!

Maybe our hearts need to grow a couple of sizes; or our brains need to shrink!

Maybe it is better to be forward, than to be killed with kindness?

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:09 am

Naw, Gorm, I think Lightkeeper has simply become far too immersed in New Agey "It's all good" thinking. (Or the common New Age dogma that we can alter our reality by changing our thinking.)

I don't recall which poster to the thread expressed the view that people who are well-fed and live in plenty generally haven't much difficulty supporting the idea of detaching from suffering. I think that nailed the problem with venerating detachment. It's freakin' easy to espouse such lovely ideas when you and your kids have a comfy home, nice things and enough to eat.

But it's unrealistic, as you point out, to expect someone thrust into desperate circumstances to think in terms of altering the nature of one's thoughts in order to find relief from suffering. That's crap in that situation, and to imply as Lightkeeper seemed to me to be doing that we can all detach from suffering if we only try hard enough can be a very cruel statement.
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Re: Thin skinned

Post by P_Synthesis on Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:25 am

People like Lightkeeper have no comprehension of what acceptance really means -- they mouth off about how one must accept, and then blow up at people who won't accept it? How accepting is that? Very Happy

Acceptance is a great idea, if you get it. It means not asking anything to be other than what it is -- the opposite of denial or fantasizing, in other words and including facing what one's real emotions are, and the actions one has to take in the situation one is dealing with. It doesn't mean passivity and pretending you don't feel what you actually feel.

Same with 'detachment', which in the New Age has become equivalent to blocking off from reality, disengaging with oneself, etc. etc. In Psychosynthesis a version of detachment is taught called 'disidentification', and it's one of the most useful exercises there is -- but you can only disidentify or detach from what you have acknowledged as existing. Many talk about attachment but only practice denial!

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by wmdkitty on Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:01 am

P_Synthesis wrote:Same with 'detachment', which in the New Age has become equivalent to blocking off from reality, disengaging with oneself, etc. etc. In Psychosynthesis a version of detachment is taught called 'disidentification', and it's one of the most useful exercises there is -- but you can only disidentify or detach from what you have acknowledged as existing. Many talk about attachment but only practice denial!

Wait, wait, wait. You just described dissociation. It's an interesting psychological phenomenon, to be sure, but I wouldn't call it healthy, useful, or "of the good", except that it can serve to preserve one's sanity in traumatic situations.
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Re: Thin skinned

Post by P_Synthesis on Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:03 am

You just described dissociation.

No I didn't! I mentioned disidentification which is definitely not the same thing.

Have you heard of disidentification before?

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by P_Synthesis on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:27 pm

... synchronicity alert, was just digging into Firman/Gila's Psychosynthesis -- A Psychology of the Spirit which has a great example of disidentification.

Laura entered counseling because she found herself acting like a helpless child when relating to her parents and other perceived authority figures. She would become childlike and passive with such people and then finally become angry when she was ignored... Laura recognized a child subpersonality whose behaviour was disrupting her adult relationships... Implicit in Laura's transformation was her realization that she was not simply a childish person but that she had a child part of herself. This realization gave ger the freedom to come into a relationship with this child subpersonality... she discovered that her deeper identity was distinct -- though not completely separate -- from this subpersonality... This ability to identify with, or disidentify from different aspects of the personality reveals the profound nature of the "I"...

From this disidentification she... could be immanent, engaged with the child... As "I" disidentified from the child subpersonality... her awareness became open to more adult aspects of her personality... Note that in disidentification, her consciousness did not become dissociated from the feelings of the child, but rather her consciousness expanded to include the adult perspective as well as the feelings of the child.


... so that's the difference. Dissociation as you note ain't too pleasant and is essentially an unwilled cutting-off of the self in response to trauma; disidentification is a deliberate expansion of identity beyond a limited perspective in which we have reflexively become too caught up.

Hope that helps!

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Re: Thin skinned

Post by AutumnalTone on Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:02 pm

In the couple-three pages of the thread I read--when the link worked for me--I saw lots of notions offered up that I disagree with.

The idea that our thoughts cause suffering so we should ignore our thoughts is silly. We create our thoughts, they don't just pop up from nothing in our heads. We can learn to run our brains in fashions that are healthy and useful.

The idea that emotions are bad and we should suppress them is also silly. Emotions are useful indicators that we have a reason to attend to some matter. Feeling emotion is not the same as being ruled by emotion. As with thoughts, we can learn to manage our emotions in fashions that are healthy and useful.

The idea that acceptance simply means ignoring what happened and moving along with life without serious regard for it is also silly--and much-less-than-useful. There's a great deal of good to be found in always working from where you are, certainly. There's also a great deal to be gained from figuring out exactly what happened, why it happened, what you can do to keep it from happening again, dealing with boundary violations on the part of others, and seeking redress for wrongs committed against you (which is part of existing in a social environment).

It appears some of the folk in that discussion think that working to suppress or eliminate parts of the human experience is a good thing. I find that preposterous. One isn't living fully until one embraces the whole of one's human experience and lives in harmony with it.

Even that isn't a ward against things going wrong. I've been under a good deal of stress due to prolonged unemployment. Our household budget is extremely strained. I am not ruled by my emotions nor am I running worst case scenarios through my head endlessly nor otherwise creating "suffering" in any of the fashions brought up in that discussion. I also am not able to live my normal lifestyle, despite it not being anything extravagant. In some significant fashions, parts of my existence are not pleasant right now, something I'm guessing those folks would call "suffering."

AS for me, well, I think life is a banquet. Some dishes are sweet, some spicy, some savory, some sour, some bitter, some nourishing, some nothing more than appealing fluff. Every dish is part of the human experience, though, and without the interplay of different flavors, it wouldn't be as tasty as a whole. I exist for no purpose other than to be human with all that such entails.
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Re: Thin skinned

Post by gillyflower on Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:07 pm

I think that is a very healthy way to look at life.

Isn't thinking that if you think of suffering you will get suffering along the lines of magical thinking? Meaning "If you step on a crack, you'll break your mother's back" sort of thing.

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