Did the Christian god create evil?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:19 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Today, millions of people [this is all my own opinion, of course] follow a fabrication fostered by a few religious men with an agenda, in a time when people were easily swayed. I suspect that if they tried to do the same thing today as was done back then (when the church was just starting to form), they would not get it off the ground, and it would be seen as "another one of those silly cults". With this religion. . . .its timing was everything for it.

Oh, I don't know about that, Deavon, even though I wish I could agree with you.

Our time has seen the rise of a good many sects, The Westboro Baptist Church among them, which satisfy people's need for certainties when so often life seems to have few or none.

We've also seen the rise of such truly off-the-wall groups as Heaven's Gate which basically did that for their woefully misguided members.

I think the one thing that may be a truth about religions is that they are created and joined ordinarily by well-intentioned people who want assurances that life means something in the end.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:25 pm

I really don't understand that, Dot, about "people who want assurances that life means something in the end." My life has meaning every single day because I'm breathing and enjoying the world. I don't understand why it has to mean something more than that. I don't understand why people so fear the end of their lives, that they have to believe that it is going to go on and on. It was good - it is good! Enjoy it and live life so well, that it is enough for you, that you feel you have made a difference in other people's lives and in the world, leaving it a little better because you were in it. If there's more, then it is icing on the cake.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:35 pm

You're right, Gilly in the respect that there are stupid people in every religion. I'll admit to that. But these people were taught by someone and they passed , (or in your case are passing) it along. Christianity has had centuries of passing along bad information. Those examples that Leigh gave, and the one's Dot replied to are some pretty darned good examples. And then given what Deavon added.... people are supposed to believe as a child... Don't question, don't think.

There are examples in every belief that wants to tweak it for their own reasons.... Ignorance of a new comer not withstanding, you gotta admit, someone put the idea into their heads, and told them this is the truth. Wiccans have the upper hand IMO, because there are enough older believers who can (if they choose, rather than just complain about it) set them straight.

As far as bigotry and prejudice.... these are learned virtues. Not in born. What religion has the biggest problem with others outside of their own little clicks? Christianity. And who preaches about sinful nature of man, and the hideous consequences of behavior not approved by their belief?

I'm sorry Gilly. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:44 pm

John, they are just single examples. If Wicca lasts 2000 years, I'm just going to have a whole lot more examples, like Christianity has. The brand of Christianity that I belonged to didn't mind questions or thinking. A tradition of Wicca that I turned down did mind questions and discourage thinking.

You hit the nail on the head - SOMEONE put those ideas in their head. I bet SOMEONE would have put bad ideas in heads no matter what religion they belonged to because they were intent on using the religion to control other people. As people have been doing for millenniums. Just because SOMEONE uses a religion as a tool for personal power doesn't mean that the religion is bad.

You are right, we will have to agree to disagree. I see too many people who are just out of prison (they are dumped off down the block), visiting the parole board across the street, at the welfare office, selling themselves or drugs, lying, cheating and stealing, beating each other up and threatening children to ever believe that the flaws in human nature can be laid at the door of a religion.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:07 pm

gillyflower wrote:You hit the nail on the head - SOMEONE put those ideas in their head. I bet SOMEONE would have put bad ideas in heads no matter what religion they belonged to because they were intent on using the religion to control other people. As people have been doing for millenniums. Just because SOMEONE uses a religion as a tool for personal power doesn't mean that the religion is bad.

Something grows bad because the people involved makes it so due to their quest for power or control. On that we agree. And when someone puts out bad information, and people come to believe this as a undeniable truth, then the product is no longer a good product.

gillyflower wrote:You are right, we will have to agree to disagree. I see too many people who are just out of prison (they are dumped off down the block), visiting the parole board across the street, at the welfare office, selling themselves or drugs, lying, cheating and stealing, beating each other up and threatening children to ever believe that the flaws in human nature can be laid at the door of a religion.

The OP was did god (I'm assuming the question pertained to any god) create evil. My response all along has been no; emphatically no. Some flaws in human nature can be attributed to disease of some sort, or just too lazy to work, and more willing to take the short cut. Soon a way of life is created, and should be dealt with. But to take the stand that original man, or in the Christian's case a woman set the standard for what some describe as evil, and the rest of humanity that follows is somehow tainted because of this, and destined to suffer for eternity over it is false information that has been perpetuated down through recorded time. I don't buy into that concept for one nanosecond.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:11 pm

john5180 wrote:

Something grows bad because the people involved makes it so due to their quest for power or control. On that we agree. And when someone puts out bad information, and people come to believe this as a undeniable truth, then the product is no longer a good product.


I must disagree with you. There are people who call themselves Wiccan who are putting out bad information and some people believe that this (what those people say) is the undeniable truth and get all upset when people disagree with them. That doesn't mean that the product is bad. I just means that those people are abusing the product.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:26 pm

Deavon, I don't claim to know exactly what you are going through; but I know you are in transition on your religious beliefs and a thought occurred to me.

Have you read Bart D. Ehrman? Specifically I am thinking of Lost Christianities. Christianity didn't have to be what it has come to be today. Anyway, with all the angst and everything you seem to be going through, I just thought maybe another flavor of Christianity might be right for you. Gnostic, Marcion, something.

If not, of if you think I am overstepping, then forget I said anything.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:54 pm

No, I respect your opinions, SG. . . . . really! As far as "another flavor of christianity", it still holds a major problem with the whole REASON of "the christ", specifically Jesus. The idea that a sacrifice. . . . a HUMAN one, at that, was necessary to "cleans us poor pitiful humans who, due to our actions, deserve something horrible, and are in need of someone to save us from it." I'm just not sure if a "sect of christianity" that doesn't include that theology, CAN be called christianity. Of course, I may be missing a point that is brought up in the book that you mentioned, so it could be something worth looking at. Thanks!
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:04 pm

DeavonReye wrote:No, I respect your opinions, SG. . . . . really! As far as "another flavor of christianity", it still holds a major problem with the whole REASON of "the christ", specifically Jesus. The idea that a sacrifice. . . . a HUMAN one, at that, was necessary to "cleans us poor pitiful humans who, due to our actions, deserve something horrible, and are in need of someone to save us from it." I'm just not sure if a "sect of christianity" that doesn't include that theology, CAN be called christianity. Of course, I may be missing a point that is brought up in the book that you mentioned, so it could be something worth looking at. Thanks!

There were branches of Christianity that called themselves Christian who did not believe that what happened to Jesus was important. What Jesus taught was the important part.

Read the Gospel of Thomas for an example: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

Christianity, like most other religions, has meant different things to different people, and some versions aren't recognizable to the other versions!

Religion is a hell of a thing, isn't it?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:59 pm

Yeah, . . . .it really is. I don't think that christianity of any sort will be for me.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:09 pm

Fair enough. All I want is for you to find the path for you.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:15 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:No, I respect your opinions, SG. . . . . really! As far as "another flavor of christianity", it still holds a major problem with the whole REASON of "the christ", specifically Jesus. The idea that a sacrifice. . . . a HUMAN one, at that, was necessary to "cleans us poor pitiful humans who, due to our actions, deserve something horrible, and are in need of someone to save us from it." I'm just not sure if a "sect of christianity" that doesn't include that theology, CAN be called christianity. Of course, I may be missing a point that is brought up in the book that you mentioned, so it could be something worth looking at. Thanks!

There were branches of Christianity that called themselves Christian who did not believe that what happened to Jesus was important. What Jesus taught was the important part.

Read the Gospel of Thomas for an example: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

Christianity, like most other religions, has meant different things to different people, and some versions aren't recognizable to the other versions!

Religion is a hell of a thing, isn't it?

Thought I heard my ears burning. We in New Thought have our Christianity without the Jesus-death-salvation garbage.

While we are Christian, I've absolved myself of the Christian label because (to me) it carries too much with it, including beliefs of sin, ORIGINAL sin, Jesus worship, sacrifices, fear of magic, blah blah de blah, and though I think Jesus was a faboo kinda dude and the Christ is a real thing, I just don't want to be associated with the name of Christianity.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:56 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Fair enough. All I want is for you to find the path for you.

Thanks! I hope I find it, too.

TED, that's kind of the way I am. Too much bagage with the term, including the doctrines you mentioned.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:06 pm

DeavonReye wrote:No, I respect your opinions, SG. . . . . really! As far as "another flavor of christianity", it still holds a major problem with the whole REASON of "the christ", specifically Jesus. The idea that a sacrifice. . . . a HUMAN one, at that, was necessary to "cleans us poor pitiful humans who, due to our actions, deserve something horrible, and are in need of someone to save us from it." I'm just not sure if a "sect of christianity" that doesn't include that theology, CAN be called christianity. Of course, I may be missing a point that is brought up in the book that you mentioned, so it could be something worth looking at. Thanks!

I had a teacher who said once that if you just have a problem with the beliefs you can usually find a sect that will suit you within the religion but if you have a problem with the god of the religion, then that's when you need to find a new god. That was just her opinion but I thought it was pretty sensible.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:46 am

hehe. . . . that's a pretty good thought, actually, gilly.

Now, it is completely possible that the god that the jews worshipped was misunderstood BY them, and much of what was stated as "coming from god" wasn't at all true, . . . . . and it is completely possible that the same thing happened with modern day christianity, . . . . however, we can't really know that, . . . so the only way to procede is by accepting their word for it, and then realizing that it [the theology] is incongruent with my life view and morality. Not that I "can't live up to the biblical morality", . . . but that my morality is higher.

So, yes, . . . "looking for a new deity".
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:55 am

I have the visual of Mystery Men, when they're looking for a new superhero, sitting at a table with a line of deities turning in applications.

"Name? Powers? NEXT!"

I have such a weird poly/mono/pantheistic belief system I'm open to anything and definite about nothing. Kind of a mess.

Gilly: The god thing is a good way to look at it. IMO, the problem with Christianity is like Deavon says, who really knows the god? Blah.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:30 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I have the visual of Mystery Men, when they're looking for a new superhero, sitting at a table with a line of deities turning in applications.

"Name? Powers? NEXT!"

I have such a weird poly/mono/pantheistic belief system I'm open to anything and definite about nothing. Kind of a mess.

Gilly: The god thing is a good way to look at it. IMO, the problem with Christianity is like Deavon says, who really knows the god? Blah.

In my case, it was just a feeling of emptiness. I don't know how to explain it. The words in the book didn't match up with the concept of Christianity that was given to me. Somehow, I never could quite see this god as a god of love. I had an understanding of something that I could believe in, but never could put a finger on where I fit in. All I knew was that it wasn't under the umbrella of Christianity. I was in my 40's, and actually Willowcreek stumbled upon this Pagan group here locally. At first, I figured they were all nut cases of some sort, and didn't want anything to do with them, but I went to one of their monthly dinners with Dee, and ran into a few people I already knew, and my ideas ran pretty close to their spiritual concepts. I got into some very interesting conversations with a few others that I met there that night, and found that I was in a room filled with (for lack of better word) like-minded people. That's when gut feelings alone on my part gave way to information and reference books. I've never looked back after that. I settled in on the Celtic/Druidadic path; or rather it beckoned to me. At last, I had found my spiritual niche, and have been content and fairly fulfilled since.

Sometimes Deavon, you just have to let go, and let the doors open before you. You'll find a place to land and be content too.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:41 pm

Sometimes you just have to scream at the Universe. I know I had to.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:49 pm

Okay then, . . . . . . *deep breath* . . AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Silly!

I yelled "IS ANYBODY OUT THERE???" Somebody answered. It wasn't who I expected.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:55 pm

Thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:35 am

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Sometimes you just have to scream at the Universe. I know I had to.

I do that once in a while. Sometimes I even get answers! Don't know if it's just me talking to myself or not...but at least it's something.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:44 am

In my religion it is called making your will known or using your will to bring about a change. It might not be the reaction you want or expect but you are attempting to make a change happen rather than passively waiting for it to happen.

You know the old definition for insanity - doing the same things and expecting a different outcome? Well, screaming at the universe or asking the universe for what you want might be a different action for you and there you go.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:54 am

I tend to shout out on occasion. But generally out of frustration. I did a whole bunch of shouting yesterday.

Like TED said, maybe it was only to myself... I'm sure the gods were listening, but even if they do nothing about the situation, (and I'm not sure they're actually supposed to do more than give wisdom), at least they know how I feel about it.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:21 pm

It's an age-old tradition. Remember in Fiddler On the Roof when Tevye shakes his fist at the sky and yells at God?
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