Did the Christian god create evil?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by TPaine on Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:57 pm

A cynic might say because a non-triple OMNI God would not draw as many followers and, therefore, not as much money to the church.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:00 pm

TPaine wrote:A cynic might say because a non-triple OMNI God would not draw as many followers and, therefore, not as much money to the church.

or that a Church aspiring to be all-powerful; needs an all powerful God?
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by P_Synthesis on Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:04 pm

or that a Church aspiring to be all-powerful; needs an all powerful God?

Shocked You're not allowed to say that! You're a fundamentalist! Fundamentalists always believe the church line!

You just rocked my world; thanks. Smile

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by TPaine on Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:14 pm

P_Synthesis wrote:

Shocked You're not allowed to say that! You're a fundamentalist! Fundamentalists always believe the church line!

You just rocked my world; thanks. Smile
One thing I'll say for Dave is he may be a fundamentalist, but he's a fundamentalist who actually thinks for himself. He doesn't blindly go along with the party line.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by P_Synthesis on Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:18 pm

Yes but here in 'sophisticated' (= up its own a?s) London, they tell us such people cannot exist. People probably wouldn't even believe he was on a multifaith forum without a link to prove it. It's just more of the people-think-they-already-know thing.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:51 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:I don't know the answer to that, Dave. Any ponderings that you have had about this?

It seems that "free will" is just a product of a sentient being, . . . and a god who doesn't necessarily know future events.

like I said I think He knows all possible outcomes; but doesn't know which one we will choose ...hence all the politicking

edit//
or maybe I just read too much Science Fiction

hehehe. . . .I think it would take a LOT of Science Fiction to mess someone up.

Anyway, thank you for your insight on this, Dave.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Davelaw wrote:
TPaine wrote:A cynic might say because a non-triple OMNI God would not draw as many followers and, therefore, not as much money to the church.

or that a Church aspiring to be all-powerful; needs an all powerful God?

Ya know... it's seldom Dave and I agree on anything. Once in a blue moon though, it happens.

Thanks for the in put, Dave.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:46 am

1 John 4:8 says "...God is love." That's a wonderfully simple, powerful statement. Deuteronomy 32:4 says this of God, "The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he." Being love, and proving by his dealings with humans in the Bible that he has the qualities of justice, righteousness, and uprightness, one can conclude that God would not himself create or cause evil. Psalms 5:4 says of Him, "You are not a God taking delight in wickedness." The Almighty God would not create something he takes no delight in.

What God did create and establish were standards to live by, of which he required obedience if Adam and Eve would continue to benefit from his love. However, he did not force obedience. They had a choice to obey or not to obey. To obey would be Good as this would please God and benefit them. To disobey would be Evil because disobedience is rebellion against God's standards which would lead to ruin. So, when Adam and Eve who were perfect humans chose to rebel against God's standards, their evil (sin) was a product of their own choice.

God, out of love, created freedom of choice. Choice does not equal evil. Adam and Eve could have chosen to be obedient forever. Had they done that and produced perfect offspring who also chose to be obedient, evil would not exist in the world.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:37 pm

Well, welcome to the page. We appreciate you sharing your feelings.

However, simple recitation of religious dogma doesn't mean it is true. Ultimate power doesn't not equate to "justice" or "righteousness". And along with that, if ultimate power "cannot abide with iniquity", yet lets it stay around to screw up "the plan" is, in effect, condoning its place IN "the plan". The character of "Satan" was "a murderer FROM the beginning", so yes, he would have been created to be the "head of demons".

Rather than just blindly believing, it is okay to see much of the biblical accounts and stories as the man made things that they are. . . . unless you think it is "justice" or "righteous" to ask a person to kill their own son. Regardless of the supposed "outcome", . . . the request was made. . . and it could only be an unethical request.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:29 pm

DeavonReye wrote: Rather than just blindly believing, it is okay to see much of the biblical accounts and stories as the man made things that they are. . . . unless you think it is "justice" or "righteous" to ask a person to kill their own son. Regardless of the supposed "outcome", . . . the request was made. . . and it could only be an unethical request.

Welcome from me as well.

I'd echo what Deavon says above since I've long found the story of Abraham and Isaac horrible rather than awe-inspiring. I can't imagine willingly worshipping a deity who'd make such a request of a father in the first place. Did God care nothing for how terrified Isaac undoubtedly was at being prepared to be sacrificed? You can't tell me that a boy would understand that his father is doing this to please a "just and righteous" God who loves them both.

God didn't seem to be especially interested in the fact that obviously the vast majority of the first-born sons of the Egyptians could hardly be deemed responsible for the enslavement of Moses and the Israelites. No mercy for them, many of which undoubtedly were mere children and infants. And all this senseless slaughter to issue the ultimate persuasion to Pharoah to let the Israelites go!

Interesting that Luvedlessleah should have quoted Deuteronomy about the justice and righteousness of God when this is a book which details some of the more horrific retaliations God allows, even mandates.

One example, a beautiful woman spotted among captives from a siege of an enemy city can be brought home, forced to shave her head and cut her nails short. After she has been held for a month, the man who selected her can essentially rape her and regard her as his wife. (Deuteronomy 21:10-13 RSV) "Then, if you have no delight in her, you shall let her go where she will, but you shall not sell her for money, you shall not treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:14 RSV)

Charming, isn't it? I'm sure any woman would be thrilled indeed by this so very merciful and just treatment, authorized by God no less.

This is only one of several examples of the sort. I could continue, but I find this one more than repulsive enough.

Let's not kid ourselves by isolating passages that demonstrate the point we want to make, carefully choosing to overlook others which appear in the very same book and which not only do not serve our purpose but completely contradict it.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:18 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
DeavonReye wrote: Rather than just blindly believing, it is okay to see much of the biblical accounts and stories as the man made things that they are. . . . unless you think it is "justice" or "righteous" to ask a person to kill their own son. Regardless of the supposed "outcome", . . . the request was made. . . and it could only be an unethical request.

Welcome from me as well.

I'd echo what Deavon says above since I've long found the story of Abraham and Isaac horrible rather than awe-inspiring. I can't imagine willingly worshipping a deity who'd make such a request of a father in the first place. Did God care nothing for how terrified Isaac undoubtedly was at being prepared to be sacrificed? You can't tell me that a boy would understand that his father is doing this to please a "just and righteous" God who loves them both.

God didn't seem to be especially interested in the fact that obviously the vast majority of the first-born sons of the Egyptians could hardly be deemed responsible for the enslavement of Moses and the Israelites. No mercy for them, many of which undoubtedly were mere children and infants. And all this senseless slaughter to issue the ultimate persuasion to Pharoah to let the Israelites go!

Interesting that Luvedlessleah should have quoted Deuteronomy about the justice and righteousness of God when this is a book which details some of the more horrific retaliations God allows, even mandates.

One example, a beautiful woman spotted among captives from a siege of an enemy city can be brought home, forced to shave her head and cut her nails short. After she has been held for a month, the man who selected her can essentially rape her and regard her as his wife. (Deuteronomy 21:10-13 RSV) "Then, if you have no delight in her, you shall let her go where she will, but you shall not sell her for money, you shall not treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:14 RSV)

Charming, isn't it? I'm sure any woman would be thrilled indeed by this so very merciful and just treatment, authorized by God no less.

This is only one of several examples of the sort. I could continue, but I find this one more than repulsive enough.

Let's not kid ourselves by isolating passages that demonstrate the point we want to make, carefully choosing to overlook others which appear in the very same book and which not only do not serve our purpose but completely contradict it.

I would also like to extend my welcome to Luvedlessleah as well. I hope to read more of your thoughts... your thoughts, Luvedlessleah not just some quote from your holy book without any in put of your own.

To add to the discussion, I want to share something I read just recently. It's a quote by Rod Serling, the creator of the television series The Twilight Zone He said, "I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply. In almost everything I've ever written there is a thread of this: a palpable need to dislike someone other than himself."

This quote struck a cord with me, and is even more pertinent for this thread. I can't think of any god who created prejudice... I believe particularly where religion is concerned, this is purely a man made construct. Any one or thing that fails to fall into lockstep with one's ideas..... ideas of morality, justice, or belief is surely someone, or thing to be looked down upon rather than make an attempt to see the other's point of view. In every religion, in some form or other, the admonition to be kind to strangers and harm none can be found. Yet more wars and senseless killing has occurred under the banner of religion than greed for power. To offer another quote to further my point "The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good, or evil." (Hannah Arendt)

Gods don't create evil. It's created in the hearts of men.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:00 pm

I agree that simple recitation of religious dogma doesn't make it true. Never would I encourage or expect anyone to accept any statement I make, or anyone else's for that matter, as fact. That would be foolish. What I do encourage, is people to hear a viewpoint, investigate/research that viewpoint, reason on it, be honest with themselves, and then make their own decision. But don't be so quick to blow statements off as untrue religious dogma.

True, ultimate power does not in itself equate to justice and things being handled properly. I do not say that God is just and righteous simply because he is the Creator. with ultimate power. Being unequaled in power and authority, he could be abusive, oppressive, and a tyrant. And who could challenge or stop him if he were? But he is neither of those things. The bible, which I believe to be the inspired word of God (not simply a book written by men) does not reveal him to be that way. The holy scriptures I accept as inspired of God because I have seen evidence within the writings that indicate that they originate from a divine source, more than simple human wisdom and understanding, even though they were physically written by men. One would be blind to the evidence if they were automatically inclined to dismiss religion as a whole and reject scripture as untrue religious dogma.

As evidenced in the bible, God's ultimate power is exercised with justice and righteousness. God did not create Satan to be the head of the demons. This is the role Satan chose for himself after being created a perfect spirit being, also endowed with free will. At John 8:44 it says, "You are from your father the devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him." "He did not stand fast in the truth"... Indicating that at one time he was in the truth. He chose to leave it. He chose to rebel. Evidently, "when he began" is not refering to the exact moment of his coming into existence. Rather, it encompasses a span of time very early on, very near to that moment when he came to be.

Satan has instigated the evil that exists in the world today, not God. God tolerates the evil, but he will not do so indefinitely as is stated in the bible. If one is not aware of why he has tolerated evil for so long, one would very likely assume that God condones or even causes this evil. There are people who blindly believe. There are also people who blindly disbelieve. The only way not to be blind in these matters is to be willing to gather the information, research, and make an honest evaluation. There are good reasons for God's tolerance of evil and his plan has been delayed, re-routed you could say, but he has control of the situation and his will will be accomplished.

God's act of providing his son, Jesus, as a ransom sacrifice is an astounding act of love that he provided with the full cooperation and willingness of his son. This is the greatest act of love known. No one asked for this provision, it was a gift to us. Because it was done out of love and willingly, it is a just act. It is an act of undeserved kindness.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:20 pm

Isn't it remarkable that God had not asked Abraham to do something that he himself was not willing or about to actually do? It was greatly distressing for him to witness the sacrificial death of his son, Jesus. Love moved him to do so. And he resurrected him.

Take note that God made the request but stopped Abraham before it had been accomplished. Of course Abraham dreaded having to even think about doing such a thing as a father. But why was he going to do it? Because he knew God could bring his son back from the dead. If God could restore his reproductive powers and that of his wife in old age, then certainly he could restore the life of his son. He didn't understand why God would ask him to do it, but he trusted in him. This whole account foreshadowed how God was going to provide a ransom sacrifice for mankind.

Nine plagues preceded the 10th plague against the Egyptians. Nine times pharoah and the egyptians witnessed the trueness of God's word, his ability to do what he said he would do. They witnessed the superiority of is power. The Tenth plague would be the most devastating for them as it involved the lives of all the 1st born being cut off. Pharaoh was warned. God warned of the consequences of further denial of his request to release the Israelites. By the way, God could have killed the 1st born and all the Egyptians straight away. But he extended warnings mercifully, gave numerous chances to abide, leaving the most devastating consequence for refusal to cooperate last. Pharaoh chose not to cooperate. Seems to me like he is the one who was not merciful or kind to his own people. His stubborn behavior as their ruler and his arrogance made him bloodguilty regarding Egypt and their firstborn.

Infants and children are either positively affected by the actions of those responsible for them or negatively affected by them. God views young children of true Christians as "holy" as indicated by 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verse 14. On the other hand, God has destroyed the wicked along with their young children. It is important to remember that God does not take pleasure in destroying anyone. When he executes judgement, he will do so according to his wisdom and justice. He gives repeated warnings before taking action. Is this not merciful? His warnings benefit parents, children, young, and old.

Recall the incident of Rahab in the book of Joshua. Though a prostitute, she had heard about the Israelites and their God and was convinced that it would be deadly for her to be uncooperative with them and their God (a lesson pharoah couldn't grasp). Because she protected the men of Israel and cooperated with them, Rahab's life was spared. But not her's only. They spared the lives of her parents, siblings, and all her sibling's children (no doublt some infants involved here). They all benefited based solely on the act of faith of Rahab.

We learn a valuable lesson. It behooves us to be cooperative with God like Rahab and not uncooperative like pharaoh of Egypt.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:43 pm

Luvedlessleah wrote:I agree that simple recitation of religious dogma doesn't make it true. Never would I encourage or expect anyone to accept any statement I make, or anyone else's for that matter, as fact. That would be foolish. What I do encourage, is people to hear a viewpoint, investigate/research that viewpoint, reason on it, be honest with themselves, and then make their own decision. But don't be so quick to blow statements off as untrue religious dogma.

And what would you say to those of us who have done the research and found your religion wanting? I would rather hear ten thousand words from someone forming his (or her) own opinion than one word of religious dogma.

Luvedlessleah wrote:True, ultimate power does not in itself equate to justice and things being handled properly. I do not say that God is just and righteous simply because he is the Creator. with ultimate power. Being unequaled in power and authority, he could be abusive, oppressive, and a tyrant. And who could challenge or stop him if he were? But he is neither of those things. The bible, which I believe to be the inspired word of God (not simply a book written by men) does not reveal him to be that way. The holy scriptures I accept as inspired of God because I have seen evidence within the writings that indicate that they originate from a divine source, more than simple human wisdom and understanding, even though they were physically written by men. One would be blind to the evidence if they were automatically inclined to dismiss religion as a whole and reject scripture as untrue religious dogma.

Several points here.... First, the idea of the biblegod being the one and only true, bona fide, all powerful universal creator is your opinion ( a Christian concept) and should be stated as such. Secondly, an abusive or oppressive deity is not one worthy of worship.

It seems to me that you have discarded all of the scripture found in your bible which specifically shows your god to be just as you've described him.... abusive and oppressive. Not to mention an over inflated ego, and an obsessive need for adoration or else. You religion (for my part at least) has been considered, found lacking and dismissed.

Luvedlessleah wrote:As evidenced in the bible, God's ultimate power is exercised with justice and righteousness. God did not create Satan to be the head of the demons. This is the role Satan chose for himself after being created a perfect spirit being, also endowed with free will. At John 8:44 it says, "You are from your father the devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him." "He did not stand fast in the truth"... Indicating that at one time he was in the truth. He chose to leave it. He chose to rebel. Evidently, "when he began" is not refering to the exact moment of his coming into existence. Rather, it encompasses a span of time very early on, very near to that moment when he came to be.

This is a Christian belief. Not a universal one. Many of us do not believe in this deity called Satan. And yes, the Christians have given this entity the power and authority of a deity..... the same as their "good god". And the bible is no absolute authority except for the Christians. To non Christians it has no more value page for page than what the Christians feel about any other holy text from older more reliable religions.

Luvedlessleah wrote:Satan has instigated the evil that exists in the world today, not God. God tolerates the evil, but he will not do so indefinitely as is stated in the bible. If one is not aware of why he has tolerated evil for so long, one would very likely assume that God condones or even causes this evil. There are people who blindly believe. There are also people who blindly disbelieve. The only way not to be blind in these matters is to be willing to gather the information, research, and make an honest evaluation. There are good reasons for God's tolerance of evil and his plan has been delayed, re-routed you could say, but he has control of the situation and his will will be accomplished.

Again.... solely a Christian belief. The Jews, from which Christianity sprang believed that Satan was an agent of their god who stood as the accuser of men. He did not lead men astray, nor did he wield any particular power. He did have their god's ear when it came to judgment. And knowing this, why should I consider taking any serious stock in your religious beliefs?

Luvedlessleah wrote:God's act of providing his son, Jesus, as a ransom sacrifice is an astounding act of love that he provided with the full cooperation and willingness of his son. This is the greatest act of love known. No one asked for this provision, it was a gift to us. Because it was done out of love and willingly, it is a just act. It is an act of undeserved kindness.

The worst example of a god's love out of them all. Christians love to deride Pagan cultures; even the Jewish culture for having been involved in blood sacrifices. Yet here an entire religion has been formed around just that.... a blood sacrifice. And Christians still call this act a service to humanity, and act of love. How sad is that? It's little wonder when people ponder the creation of evil by a god, the first one to spring to mind is the Christian god.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:09 pm

Luvedlessleah wrote:Nine plagues preceded the 10th plague against the Egyptians. Nine times pharoah and the egyptians witnessed the trueness of God's word, his ability to do what he said he would do. They witnessed the superiority of is power. The Tenth plague would be the most devastating for them as it involved the lives of all the 1st born being cut off.

Ah, I see. Children are expendable. Nevermind that many of the firstborn were infants and children. Their Pharoah didn't obey despite many warnings, so too bad, you kids get to die.

Tell me how that's the least bit just and merciful to THEM.

As for God's ability to bring Isaac back to life, that's not the issue, I maintain. You fail once again to answer at all adequately how subjecting a child to terror and death is justified so that the father can demonstrate obedience.

Abraham even lies to Isaac as they're heading to the place of sacrifice when Isaac asks him where the lamb to be sacrificed is. Abraham clearly knows who the "lamb" is. Why would Abraham need to deceive his son if he truly trusted God? He'd simply tell him, "Well, son, you're the sacrifice. God demands this, and we must trust and obey God."

Judging by Abraham's having lied to Isaac about the identity of the lamb to be sacrificed, Abraham doesn't appear to be nearly so heartless as a deity who would ask a parent to do such a thing in the first place with no regard whatsoever for a child's terror as he realizes he's about to be stabbed by his own father and his body burnt to please God.

This is quite evidently a story which deliberately seeks to arouse frissons of horror in its hearers that will be dispelled when the "lamb" they assume would be the sacrifice is spared and God conveniently provides a ram trapped in nearby brush as the actual sacrifice. Today, we'd rightly regard this ending as a cheap plot twist.

This story is a myth concocted to drive home a point to a people somewhat primitive by our more enlightened and compassionate view of what constitutes child abuse.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:23 pm

As amusing as I always find the Christinans beliefs in the power of Satan, your pantheons little bad boy is really not of any significance for the rest of humanity. Thousands of years of humanity thrived happily doing good things for their neighbors, or robbing, raping and murdering them before anyone bothered to grant to Satan the undeserved moniker of "god of this world".

There was good long before Jesus, and bad long before Satan. Billions still don't care a fiddler's fart for either one, and still manage to face the essential moral choices just fine.

Good and evil are designations we apply to choices in behaviour. Once developing to the point of having choices beyond instinct, the potential for malice and altruism began. It was a LONG time after that before we upgraded enough to qualify as homosapiens.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:07 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
Luvedlessleah wrote:Nine plagues preceded the 10th plague against the Egyptians. Nine times pharoah and the egyptians witnessed the trueness of God's word, his ability to do what he said he would do. They witnessed the superiority of is power. The Tenth plague would be the most devastating for them as it involved the lives of all the 1st born being cut off.

Ah, I see. Children are expendable. Nevermind that many of the firstborn were infants and children. Their Pharoah didn't obey despite many warnings, so too bad, you kids get to die.

Tell me how that's the least bit just and merciful to THEM.

As for God's ability to bring Isaac back to life, that's not the issue, I maintain. You fail once again to answer at all adequately how subjecting a child to terror and death is justified so that the father can demonstrate obedience.

Abraham even lies to Isaac as they're heading to the place of sacrifice when Isaac asks him where the lamb to be sacrificed is. Abraham clearly knows who the "lamb" is. Why would Abraham need to deceive his son if he truly trusted God? He'd simply tell him, "Well, son, you're the sacrifice. God demands this, and we must trust and obey God."

Judging by Abraham's having lied to Isaac about the identity of the lamb to be sacrificed, Abraham doesn't appear to be nearly so heartless as a deity who would ask a parent to do such a thing in the first place with no regard whatsoever for a child's terror as he realizes he's about to be stabbed by his own father and his body burnt to please God.

This is quite evidently a story which deliberately seeks to arouse frissons of horror in its hearers that will be dispelled when the "lamb" they assume would be the sacrifice is spared and God conveniently provides a ram trapped in nearby brush as the actual sacrifice. Today, we'd rightly regard this ending as a cheap plot twist.

This story is a myth concocted to drive home a point to a people somewhat primitive by our more enlightened and compassionate view of what constitutes child abuse.

John T Mainer wrote:As amusing as I always find the Christinans beliefs in the power of Satan, your pantheons little bad boy is really not of any significance for the rest of humanity. Thousands of years of humanity thrived happily doing good things for their neighbors, or robbing, raping and murdering them before anyone bothered to grant to Satan the undeserved moniker of "god of this world".

There was good long before Jesus, and bad long before Satan. Billions still don't care a fiddler's fart for either one, and still manage to face the essential moral choices just fine.

Good and evil are designations we apply to choices in behaviour. Once developing to the point of having choices beyond instinct, the potential for malice and altruism began. It was a LONG time after that before we upgraded enough to qualify as homosapiens.

cheers Clap Get the hint? HighFive Disco I agree with both Dot and John T. Well said, both of you.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:39 am

Yeah. . . . . I mean, come on. How many times have we heard these words from someone who tries to see their oppressive religion as "the only true religion from a loving but just god"? It is interesting that the supposed own words from the originator of the religion tells people that they need to "receive the religion as a little child". This really is true, . . . because when you DO study it, . . . . weigh the words and actions, . . . . the realism comes out loud and clear. This is NOT a "religion of love". It is ONLY a "religion of ...'do what I say or you die'...", . . . . "blind obedience...'do not question'...", . . . . "people are worthless...'so their death is what they deserve anyway'...".

There are MANY stories in the bible that are suspect, and show god as far less than moral, ethical, and even "all knowing".

~Abraham and Isaiac - "sacrifice your son to me". . . . unethical, immoral, and evil.
~god to Abraham, after he [Abraham] almost murdering his son, . . . "Now I know that you won't withhold from me your son......" . . . . . . . . An obvious example showing that god doesn't know all.
~Jephthah and his virgin daughter - sacrificing her as payment for a battle won. . . . .unethical, immoral, and evil.
~Sodom and Gomorrah - The need for god to go down to the cities to see "if what was being said about them was true." . . . . An obvious example showing that god doesn't know all.

I could go on and on, but I don't need to as these examples show where I'm going. I lived within the framework of christianity for a few decades, so I know how it all works. I used to be fully in it. However, when I started to really consider, . . .really study what things really mean, . . . and listening to the words of others who had found these things out before me, . . . I couldn't remain in that religion. Its very center core is unethical, . . . . . ie. "blood sacrifice".
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:55 am

And through it all, the Christians will proclaim that each example is one of the Christian god's outward expression of love to their creation.... scratch

Yeah, right...... Rolling Eyes
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:59 am

It is only unethical if one thinks that the bible is the true word of Yahweh rather than a history of the Hebrew people and their relationship with their god. Christians got things a little wrong IMO when they took the oral collection of Hebrew writings about this special relationship without understanding how the Hebrews interpreted their own words and writings or view their god and their relationship to him. As I've said elsewhere, it is like the Wiccans who aren't tradition trained, who read some things about the religion of Wicca and take them at face value rather than interpreting them as a tradition trained Wiccan would do.

The religion isn't evil but some members of it have twisted a decent religion into something that they say gives them the right to do evil things. Take that group of Baptists who went down to Haiti to save Catholic orphans, who weren't orphans it turns out. They really thought that their god and religion gave them the right to ignore the country's rules and apparently to lie to everyone multiple times. They thought they were doing what their god wanted, that the end they wanted justified any means that they chose to do. The religion wasn't at fault. The people involved had really a strange view of their religion, what they thought was ethical and right and of the power of their god and they bumped up against reality. But it would be very wrong to say that their religion was at fault because there are many, many people who happen to be Christians who write checks and want to help people with their basic needs first before they go after their souls. The Baptists were wrong and stupid and unethical, not their religion.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:21 pm

True, gilly. I think that it is unfortunate when it is insisted that "every word in the bible is inerrant, infallible, and the very words inspired by god". Because of this stance, they must spin stories to justify the actions and words in their holy book, . . . when it is most likely the case that these stories WERE just stories in this primative people's attempt to understand their world view.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:35 pm

gillyflower wrote:Christians got things a little wrong IMO when they took the oral collection of Hebrew writings about this special relationship without understanding how the Hebrews interpreted their own words and writings or view their god and their relationship to him. As I've said elsewhere, it is like the Wiccans who aren't tradition trained, who read some things about the religion of Wicca and take them at face value rather than interpreting them as a tradition trained Wiccan would do.

Christians not only interpret the relationship of the Hebrews with their deity quite erroneously but also mistranslate a good deal of what they call the Old Testament. I was taught as a Christian child that the Old Testament IS basically the same as the Jewish Bible. Ask any reasonably learned Jew, and you'll get a horrified denial that this is the least bit so.

Christian claims that Jesus's sacrifice was foretold many places in the OT are generally specious when one becomes aware of the contexts of the passages so claimed. The context has absolutely nothing to do with proclaiming the Christian Messiah, but you'd never know that unless you read the chapter and sometimes the entire book so that you understand the full context.

Cherrypicking as we've seen Leah do here is largely responsible and results in a faith that is based on distortions, mistranslations and misconceptions...if not outright lies.

Notice that she has made no response to my pointing out that there are truly horrific passages in Deuteronomy which laud the most heinous treatment of prisoners of war and other captives. Naturally not, since as do most Christians, she quite likely prefers to excise carefully those passages which support her whitewashed view of the Old Testament deity.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:39 pm

gillyflower wrote:It is only unethical if one thinks that the bible is the true word of Yahweh rather than a history of the Hebrew people and their relationship with their god. Christians got things a little wrong IMO when they took the oral collection of Hebrew writings about this special relationship without understanding how the Hebrews interpreted their own words and writings or view their god and their relationship to him. As I've said elsewhere, it is like the Wiccans who aren't tradition trained, who read some things about the religion of Wicca and take them at face value rather than interpreting them as a tradition trained Wiccan would do.

The religion isn't evil but some members of it have twisted a decent religion into something that they say gives them the right to do evil things. Take that group of Baptists who went down to Haiti to save Catholic orphans, who weren't orphans it turns out. They really thought that their god and religion gave them the right to ignore the country's rules and apparently to lie to everyone multiple times. They thought they were doing what their god wanted, that the end they wanted justified any means that they chose to do. The religion wasn't at fault. The people involved had really a strange view of their religion, what they thought was ethical and right and of the power of their god and they bumped up against reality. But it would be very wrong to say that their religion was at fault because there are many, many people who happen to be Christians who write checks and want to help people with their basic needs first before they go after their souls. The Baptists were wrong and stupid and unethical, not their religion.

DeavonReye wrote:True, gilly. I think that it is unfortunate when it
is insisted that "every word in the bible is inerrant, infallible, and
the very words inspired by god". Because of this stance, they must spin
stories to justify the actions and words in their holy book, . . . when
it is most likely the case that these stories WERE just stories in this
primative people's attempt to understand their world view.

OK, so we agree that it's the people of the religion, and not the religion itself. Is this what I'm reading here? So then; who makes religions? People are responsible for creating the dogma that soon becomes religion. So if the people are bad, (I refuse to use the term evil) then it only goes to reason that the religion is a skewed.

It was men who wrote the New Testament. It was men again who for religious or political (or perhaps even both) gains that rewrote, and edited this assortment of books to suit their needs. If people, such as those Baptist in Haiti Gilly wrote of are wrong headed, stupid and unethical, it can't be completely blamed on them as individuals. They are following the tenets of a religion that has become unethical at the hands of early unethical church leadership who twisted things around to suit their own private beliefs, and had the power to do so. Centuries of teaching has created what we have here today in the form of Christianity. I will admit there has been some softening of the people down through the years..... I mean after all, there are no longer public witch trials or burnings at the stake. But I'd wager that if polled, most Christians would just as soon see witches, gay/lesbian, and religions other than Christian eradicated. Just look at the negative press the Islamic religion has gotten since a hand full of fanatics slammed into the WTC. Or look at the church who bought a pallet of Harry Potter books so they could burn them in some frenzied Christian ritual. (the idea that they helped support the author hasn't gone unnoticed by me either. )

No, guys.... Until someone stands up in church and says "What we're doing is wrong, and we need to stop it.", I'm going to hold the religion responsible for the actions of the followers.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:57 pm

True, John. It IS the religion itself. The early leaders did a disservice to many people for a MANY centuries. Today, millions of people [this is all my own opinion, of course] follow a fabrication fostered by a few religious men with an agenda, in a time when people were easily swayed. I suspect that if they tried to do the same thing today as was done back then (when the church was just starting to form), they would not get it off the ground, and it would be seen as "another one of those silly cults". With this religion. . . .its timing was everything for it.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:05 pm

I don't think that it is the religions fault, John, but then I have had the experience in my own religion of watching a bunch of nuts take the basic tenets of my religion and twist it into something unrecognizable and silly and awful and, in some cases, bad/evil. Wicca cannot be held responsible for that. Wicca cannot be held responsible for a few fruitcakes who convince some ignorant people that they have the right interpretation of the religion. We haven't even been around for centuries and that has occurred!

Maybe it is because I work in a library, but I see really, truly most sincerely stupid and foolish and bigoted people every day and no one religion has the corner on them. They blame their bigotry and intolerance on a religion or a political party or the Civil War or welfare but I blame their parents and bad genes. Sometimes it is one experience or mishearing something that makes them leap to ignorant assumptions.

I think moderates are making a comeback, or maybe that is my hopefulness talking. The politicians and moderate Christians are getting tired of the extremists making them look bad.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

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