Did the Christian god create evil?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:41 pm

dattaswami wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:"What is your god's name" as well. Quit beating around the bush!

No word can indicate God. But for the people in this world who cannot understand these concepts then the word 'God' is used. God comes to this world in human form so that people can see Him, talk to Him and co-live with Him and clear all their spiritual doubts.

God comes in human form to this world by entering the most
deserving devotee existing on the earth that point of time; known as 'Son of
God'. God enters and resides in Him all the time when He is alive in this
world, It is like a live wire carrying current. When you touch the live wire
the shock is experienced. Like wise the 'Son of GOd' is the most deserving
devotee chosen by God to do His mission of divine knoweldge propagation in this
world. The son of GOd has fully surrendered to God so that God is very happy to
stay in Him for the mission of divine knoweldge propagation to people. Thus in
effect it is the God who speaks through the Son of God and give credit to the
Son of God. It is the God who does the miracles and give credit to the Son of
God, since Son of God loved God that much and God is very much pleased with
Him.
Thus when Son of GOd is alive in this world He is the very
God since God alone acts through Him. Thus whoever see the Son of God alive
here, has seen the invisible God present in Him. Thus whoever has served Son of
God has served the invisible God. God is impartial and He comes down in Human
form in every human generation to preach and uplift the human souls and He is
known as Human incarnation.
The Son of God are Jesus, Krishna, Bhudha, Mohammad etc etc....

You have no proof of any of this. The stories that you get your ideas from [where these names originate] are of human origin. Also, you DO realize that the names you ended your post with have VERY differing ideologies. What you are giving us is a vague notion at best. Anyone can believe whatever they believe works for them, . . . .and I'm all for that.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by dattaswami on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:52 pm

DeavonReye wrote:
dattaswami wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:"What is your god's name" as well. Quit beating around the bush!

No word can indicate God. But for the people in this world who cannot understand these concepts then the word 'God' is used. God comes to this world in human form so that people can see Him, talk to Him and co-live with Him and clear all their spiritual doubts.

God comes in human form to this world by entering the most
deserving devotee existing on the earth that point of time; known as 'Son of
God'. God enters and resides in Him all the time when He is alive in this
world, It is like a live wire carrying current. When you touch the live wire
the shock is experienced. Like wise the 'Son of GOd' is the most deserving
devotee chosen by God to do His mission of divine knoweldge propagation in this
world. The son of GOd has fully surrendered to God so that God is very happy to
stay in Him for the mission of divine knoweldge propagation to people. Thus in
effect it is the God who speaks through the Son of God and give credit to the
Son of God. It is the God who does the miracles and give credit to the Son of
God, since Son of God loved God that much and God is very much pleased with
Him.
Thus when Son of GOd is alive in this world He is the very
God since God alone acts through Him. Thus whoever see the Son of God alive
here, has seen the invisible God present in Him. Thus whoever has served Son of
God has served the invisible God. God is impartial and He comes down in Human
form in every human generation to preach and uplift the human souls and He is
known as Human incarnation.
The Son of God are Jesus, Krishna, Bhudha, Mohammad etc etc....

You have no proof of any of this. The stories that you get your ideas from [where these names originate] are of human origin. Also, you DO realize that the names you ended your post with have VERY differing ideologies. What you are giving us is a vague notion at best. Anyone can believe whatever they believe works for them, . . . .and I'm all for that.
I told you that GOd comes in human form to this very world, the proof of it is the Human incarnations themsevelves and their preachings. Human incarnations were Jesus, Krishna, Bhudha, RamaKrishnaParamaHamsa etc etc are the proof and still God comes in human form in every generation now also...

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by dattaswami on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:54 pm

gillyflower wrote:If you post quotes from other people or places on the web as your own, they will continue to be removed.

God is not a name. It is a classification of spiritual beings. Most gods have a name. Have you heard of the Unknown God? The Greeks honored the Unknown god in place of all the gods no one knows about. Could we rightly then call your god the Unknown god since no one seems to know about it?

I take it that you are the most deserving devotee of your Unknown god and now you are the Son of the Unknown God?
I told you God cannot be indicated by a particular name, still He is known by the name of the Son of God into which He enters and come to this world like Jesus, Krishan etc. Some people use Yahuwa, Brahma, Allah etc...etc..

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:57 pm

If you want me to believe it, I want a miracle first.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:00 pm

dattaswami wrote:
gillyflower wrote:If you post quotes from other people or places on the web as your own, they will continue to be removed.

God is not a name. It is a classification of spiritual beings. Most gods have a name. Have you heard of the Unknown God? The Greeks honored the Unknown god in place of all the gods no one knows about. Could we rightly then call your god the Unknown god since no one seems to know about it?

I take it that you are the most deserving devotee of your Unknown god and now you are the Son of the Unknown God?
I told you God cannot be indicated by a particular name, still He is known by the name of the Son of God into which He enters and come to this world like Jesus, Krishan etc. Some people use Yahuwa, Brahma, Allah etc...etc..

No, you told me that your god doesn't have a name - or perhaps, your god has not shared with you what his or her name is. My gods all have names although perhaps they are not as concerned about names as humans are. That's interesting that your god can only manifest in this world inside a human.

Just for your information, Yahweh is the name of a god, not a human. Allah too.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:05 pm

Stop posting lectures posted elsewhere on the internet for your answers. I will continue to remove them. Try answering in your own words.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:24 pm

dattaswami wrote:I told you God cannot be indicated by a particular name, still He is known by the name of the Son of God into which He enters and come to this world like Jesus, Krishan etc. Some people use Yahuwa, Brahma, Allah etc...etc..

Spam Goodbye
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:40 am

(sigh) One of the most polarizing things in the world is to come up against someone who has a different view of the deities than we do. We critique their beliefs, and suggest, sometimes strongly, there is no proof in their beliefs.

Some of us suggest that we have personal relationships, in fact have actually had interface with our god(s); and perhaps we have. We believe this strongly enough in fact, we are willing to fight..... sacrifice our very lives to get our points across. The cold hard fact is........ all of us...... down to a single soul own subjective beliefs. They are only uniquely valid to us, the individual. This is called faith. Faith that what we believe in so strongly is the truth, the only truth, and we have it. It seems that in our inner most selves, we wonder secretly sometimes that we have come to the proper decision. Else why would we debate it so furiously?

Personally, I find dattaswami's beliefs to be valid for him.... just as Gilly's is for her or TED, or Deavon. The fact that I might not hold any one of these beliefs valid does not, and certainly ought not invalidate them. The same holds true for the Christian, the Muslim, Hindu or Jew.

The OP asked if "God" created good and evil. I believe the answer is that these characteristics are two sides of the same coin. That perhaps the punishment for our deeds, or the rewards, are all that separate the differing beliefs from each other. This, and the notion that each of us want to be right in what we believe. In the long run, it makes no difference if evil was a creation of man by eating forbidden fruit in direct defiance of a god, or if it just always existed and man has tried to rationalize it by forming religious doctrine concerning it. The fact is, evil exists.

Perhaps, rather than making an attempt to assign blame, it would be a more lucrative quest to determine what we do in our lives on a daily basis to combat this evil that exists. What do we as individuals do on a daily basis to combat it when it shows up in our personal lives........ and all of us at one time or other have come face to face with it. How do we cope? What comforts us? The rest? How evil came to exist, is all subjective. Good and evil are part and parcel to our reality. How do we make a difference both in our own lives as well as those we come into contact with either continuously or intermittently? To discuss this is far more important, IMO, than dishing out the blame.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:48 am

I'm not so sure that "evil" exists as a separate thing or that I've come face to face with it. Evil, the way I define it, is doing something that is especially heinous in the harm it does animals and/or people and some people throw in the earth, too. Some people think it only counts as evil if the person means to cause as much pain as they can. Some people think that to do such things the person must be mentally ill or influenced by a spiritual being. The facts are that some people can and do things to other people that are unbelievable in their cruelty. They do it for fun or for gain or to prevent consequences to themselves.

These same people can turn around and be very kind to their dogs (or abuse them), give their mama kisses and presents (or strangle her), or be successful at work (or shoot their co-workers). I don't know, short of culling the herd and preventing some people from passing their genes on, to prevent it.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:45 am

Oh, I believe that evil exists.

I had only to see the ice cold eyes of BTK, Dennis Rader, as the judge questioned him in order to elicit as much information as possible that might indicate why a person could do what he did.

Now, one might say that Rader is a genetically flawed human being. I think perhaps there's merit in that view.

Nevertheless, the man clearly delighted in the forum given him at his sentencing hearing. He spoke of his victims as "projects" and seemed to have no feeling for the suffering his sadistic killings caused.

I think that Timothy McVeigh (OKC bombing) and the hijackers who commandeered the planes on 9/11 were evil as well. I don't care that each man may have felt devotion to a cause that he felt superseded the right to life of those who died in both instances. Evil was done nonetheless.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:23 pm

I don't tend to believe in "evil", as a force, just the absence of good. So I guess I lean more toward Gilly's concepts. I don't think that the creator god, or Universe, or whatever Designer name you wanna go by created evil.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:35 pm

john5180 wrote:Gilly, you shouldn't feed the trolls. They'll hang around forever, breed like rats and we'll get swarmed with them. Call your local SPCA and get traps for them so they can be shipped back to the wild where they came from.

Very true. Look, I still hang around....

Very Happy
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Feinics on Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:07 pm

Enjoying reading this, good discussion folks.

Speaking purely for my self, I don't believe any god or force creates evil, I think we do.
In which any way you wish define evil, from which ever religion, culture or historical era you derive your definition of evil from.From which ever action you may wish to place down the shady grey end of the spectrum of evil, I believe it not a god, any god but ourselves.

This is because what I believe is truly evil is all those moments in humanity when we stood back, made excuses or hid behind social norm . All those times , that our inactions contribute to, or allow, those evil acts within our power to prevent, occur.

When as both individuals,and a society we watch evil happen right in front of our eyes, disgusted and saddened perhaps, maybe just disinterested but for what ever reason we choose to turn away rather then act.

And I firmly believe that it's the choices we make as people and not a god or a bedtime story time boogie man that leads to evil, the buck stops with us. People may not always deserve the title evil but IMO ,most definitely can their actions and often, more importantly their inaction be truly said to be evil .
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:27 am

Has anyone here watched the documentary "Afghanistan Star?" I thought it was fascinating. It is now showing on HBO. I've seen bad reviews of it for not showing all of the truth of Afghanistan and it's history but still I found it very interesting. In it, a young man says that a girl performer deserves to die because she moved around a little onstage when she performed, dancing. He honestly believed that. No doubt he would think killing her would be a righteous action while someone from our country would think that it was an evil action.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:45 am

I haven't seen it yet, Gilly, but it goes back to things I've maintained for years. The concept of "sin", or evil is a subjective one. Of course this young man could have secretly been a Southern Baptist as well, ya know. Cool Wink

I believe when discussing something we ourselves call evil is bound up in our culture of society, religious traditions, and the environment we live in. And I believe it ebbs and flows. Particular eras have been described for either the most virtuous or (the Victorian Era) or the most lacking in virtue (Roaring Twenty's, complete with the gang wars, violence, and Flapper Girls) We survived the 50's with Ward and June Cleaver, along with Father Knows best to define it, and then came the 60's with Woodstock and the Hippie movement.

I just think that when people try to assign blame for whatever we call evil, that laying the blame on any particular god is only a means of either shrugging off the responsibility, or trying to justify themselves for their actions they've brought on..... not much differently, in fact, than the old Flip Wilson comedy skit where Geraldine claimed "the devil" made her do it.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:05 pm

My knee hurts. I have decided to blame the new guy's god.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:59 pm

SG!!!!! Clap
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Ottr on Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:21 pm

I know I haven’t participated much in this thread, my online time has been sporadic at best, but I wanted to address something …
When I originally posted the question, I was trying to wrap my mind around a Christians opinion that their creator god didn’t “create” evil, but only “allowed” evil the environment to come into existence.
My post wasn’t geared towards assigning to the Christian god the ultimate blame of creating evil, (although he personally claims otherwise… “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7) but rather an attempt at puzzling out the mechanics of the created vs. allowed opinion.

I don’t believe in the Christian story of creation, or the idea that the Christian god is responsible for everything in existence. I’m not even sure that I believe the Christian god exists, (if he does, he’s highly overrated) so I wasn’t pointing fingers.

I personally believe that evil is the result of chaos, and the destructive actions of warped individuals. I don’t believe the gods warped these individuals, I believe these individuals to be warped by their own sense of self absorption.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:07 pm

Ottr wrote:I personally believe that evil is the result of chaos, and the destructive actions of warped individuals. I don’t believe the gods warped these individuals, I believe these individuals to be warped by their own sense of self absorption.

Hummmmm.... Oddly enough, I agree.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:22 am

I don't believe that the biblical god is as his followers have said he has always been, either. However, IF it were all true, . . . then causality can only be laid at the "feet" of the most powerful source. If this being has the power to stop it, yet chooses not to, then the being in question holds MORE responsibility for the "evil" than even that which is performing the act. Let me restate. A person may do something "evil", but if that evil was only brought about by the fact that "the first evil" [sorry for the Buffy concept, but it works] was allowed to exist BY that which was perfectly able to stop it [bible god], then the blame goes back to that very point in time. If a being, such as the biblical god, "hates sin" SO much, then to allow it existence in the world that this being created, then it is a contradiction . . . even an oxymoron.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Ottr on Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:44 am

I think that if you put stock in the belief that the Christian god is, I think the correct acronym is O.O.O.(?) then the existence of evil would have to have been a conscious deliberate act, not a passive observation.
I can’t see how Christians can claim this god would be responsible for the good, and yet at the same time absolve him of what is nasty when they consider him the source of "all" that exists.
He would have to hold and posses both positive and negative energy. Two sides of the same coin, as I believe John5180 said earlier.

Ack .. I’m just happy that I’ve been tapped on the shoulder by less confusing gods.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:54 am

DeavonReye wrote:I don't believe that the biblical god is as his followers have said he has always been, either. However, IF it were all true, . . . then causality can only be laid at the "feet" of the most powerful source. If this being has the power to stop it, yet chooses not to, then the being in question holds MORE responsibility for the "evil" than even that which is performing the act. Let me restate. A person may do something "evil", but if that evil was only brought about by the fact that "the first evil" [sorry for the Buffy concept, but it works] was allowed to exist BY that which was perfectly able to stop it [bible god], then the blame goes back to that very point in time. If a being, such as the biblical god, "hates sin" SO much, then to allow it existence in the world that this being created, then it is a contradiction . . . even an oxymoron.

In this, Deavon, you're suggesting an omnipotence in a god that I just don't believe exists. Yes there is order in the world, as well as chaos. And we who were raised up in Christianity tend to see chaos as evil. Have you ever witnessed a forest fire and the destruction it causes? Barren, desolate, the toll on plants and animals alike could be seen as nothing less than evil. For the moment, let's not look at the cause of the fire. Let's not ponder if it was man made, or a natural act. Rather let's look at the next season of growth.The greening that results is far more fertile, and eco friendly than the season prior to the destruction. A cleansing of sorts. The grass grows more tender, and animals can feed on it easier. The strongest of the herd survives and begins to produce off spring again. It's actually a better place to survive than before.

Hurricanes take a devastating toll on the lives in their quake, but from such destruction comes a cleansing, and with the rebuilding, the people are stronger for it with an awakening of a new sense of purpose. All of these have been mislabeled as acts of god..... and perhaps they are, but they are acts of nature. Mother earth cleansing herself for the next go around.

At first glance at Allthegoodnamesweretaken's avatar; that Polar Bear all bloody from a fresh kill, one might only see evil at the sudden and horrific death of a seal. Underneath it all would be one of the bear's survival. And in a sense, a cleansing of the seal population.... the weaker becoming a meal, and the stronger getting away to continue the herd's population. That's just a cycle of life at it's lowest denominator.

gillyflower wrote:I'm not so sure that "evil" exists as a separate thing or that I've come face to face with it. Evil, the way I define it, is doing something that is especially heinous in the harm it does animals and/or people and some people throw in the earth, too. Some people think it only counts as evil if the person means to cause as much pain as they can. Some people think that to do such things the person must be mentally ill or influenced by a spiritual being. The facts are that some people can and do things to other people that are unbelievable in their cruelty. They do it for fun or for gain or to prevent consequences to themselves.

These same people can turn around and be very kind to their dogs (or abuse them), give their mama kisses and presents (or strangle her), or be successful at work (or shoot their co-workers). I don't know, short of culling the herd and preventing some people from passing their genes on, to prevent it.

Yes, Gilly.... people are capable of committing cruel acts of violence. Dot noted a few. And some of the examples you gave point to it as well. But even in the cruelest acts, and I'll point them out when I reply to Dot's post, there is an underlying cause that creates this effect. And it isn't because there is a god at the head of it all handling the strings of the marionettes. Discounting mental defects, there is to the perpetrator a well reasoned intention for doing what they do. In our minds.... due to our upbringing, we see evil. I'm going to try and point out how even with our inbred differing views, we aren't really all that different.

DotNotInOz wrote:Oh, I believe that evil exists.

I had only to see the ice cold eyes of BTK, Dennis Rader, as the judge questioned him in order to elicit as much information as possible that might indicate why a person could do what he did.

Now, one might say that Rader is a genetically flawed human being. I think perhaps there's merit in that view.

Nevertheless, the man clearly delighted in the forum given him at his sentencing hearing. He spoke of his victims as "projects" and seemed to have no feeling for the suffering his sadistic killings caused.

I think that Timothy McVeigh (OKC bombing) and the hijackers who commandeered the planes on 9/11 were evil as well. I don't care that each man may have felt devotion to a cause that he felt superseded the right to life of those who died in both instances. Evil was done nonetheless.


Dennis Raider was an obviously disturbed man.... the fact that no study was conducted ought not rule this out. His incarceration, (in fact had he been given the death penalty it would not have been too harsh considering), was the best possible solution for a person with a derangement such as his. Now..... did any particular god "allow" this to happen? I don't think so. In any biblical scenario where innocents were killed simply for being a part of a tribe, or nationality the biblegod followers were at war with is a similar scenario.... men gave rationalization for their acts of violence, calling it "god's wrath"

The 9/11 hi-jackers and McVey have more in common. And a similar reason to commit the acts they did. In both instances, the Federal Government did something that affected them personally. In McVey's case it was a retaliatory act against a government that had taken down the Divadians, subsequently killing the cult leader David Koresh. The fact that the bombing was done on the anniversary of the Waco incident is sufficient reason to warrant such a belief. The hi-jackers were offended that "infidels" (American armed forces) staged their attack against Iraq who had invaded Kuwait on holy Islamic soil, defiling it. According to their prophet, it was necessary to cleans the land, and this was their only justification. Although both cases were unprovoked in our minds, the rational was very close to any armed conflict we have ever engaged in. No conflict has ever been without collateral damage. The innocent lives lost were simply in the wrong place at a very wrong time in their eyes.

In only one scenario; that of Dennis Raider, could there not be some justification of good in the acts commented. If we were followers of the Branch Dividian, we might see McVey as some sort of hero, just as the hi-jackers of the flights of 9/11 were viewed by some Islamic extremists. Considering that line of reasoning, the invasion of Iraq, the capture, trial and execution of Saddam Hussane is heroic in the eyes of those who planned, carried out, or supported the notion of going to war. However, collateral damage was also evidenced there as well. This happens in any war.... innocent people die as a result of violence. However, none of these instances lead me to believe there was some omnigod who could have prevented any of this, or caused it to be. To me, it's a phenomena no different than the color of one's eyes, or the tint of one's hair. And depending upon where you live in the world, it ain't necessarily evil. I could go on by talking about the female circumcisions that take place in some African tribes. But for the most part, it is condoned, and a respected tradition. In the cases where it's now considered an act of cruelty, (and I personally believe it is) it is only thought so due to western influences. Again, subjective reasoning..... So evil is still subjective.... and the differences are cultural. So again, why try to lay the fault at the feet of any deity?
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:50 am

John, I agree that the being I mentioned, . . . the one created by the Abrahamic religions, cannot be factual. It [the being] is WAY too contradictory.

Chaos does happen, and yes, there are times when it is still okay. Your example of a forest fire is very true.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:19 pm

I like John's example. Too often that which we see as evil, is not really evil. It just appears to us to be evil. In reality it is just indifferent to us.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:03 pm

DeavonReye wrote:John, I agree that the being I mentioned, . . . the one created by the Abrahamic religions, cannot be factual. It [the being] is WAY too contradictory.

Chaos does happen, and yes, there are times when it is still okay. Your example of a forest fire is very true.

I have no doubt that the Abrahamic god is a factual god. And I can understand the contradictions involved with him. He was an ancient Hebrew war god in the beginning who made a pact with Abraham to be his one high god, and the only god Abraham would worship. It's explained fairly well in Exodus 6:7 Prior to that, there were many gods worshiped by the Hebrew. This one particular deity set himself up as the head god of one man who was promised that a nation would be built around him. Now he kept his promise to Abraham, and Abraham was loyal to this Hebrew god. So in that event the pact was made, and still continues today. Now the contradiction comes from this.... at least IMO.... the deal was struck with what came to be known as Jews. No one else. And being a war god, he had no remorse when it came killing anyone who stood in his way of fulfilling his promise to Abraham. So there aren't any "real" contradictions in the story. It is how the ancient Hebrew knew and understood this god... But the stories came from a human perspective, so in the human train of thought, murdering anyone outside the faith was not considered murder as given in the Ten Commandments. At least this is the justification as I see it. Still it all boils down to humans making an attempt to justify harsh and often times unreasonable acts. You see, under the Hebrew teachings, this god wasn't a warm and fuzzy pet as Christianity has made him out to be, but a guard dog trained to protect. Taking bits and pieces of Hebrew holy teachings; even making the attempt to steal the Hebrew god and give him a personality make over does not make the bond that this god feels for his Jewish children any less, nor by twisting the story, and making the sanitized version that Christians have now make this ancient war god any more authentic from their perspective, nor can it have him revere Christians more.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

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