Did the Christian god create evil?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:38 am

I think that is the easy way. That way they aren't really atoning to the children they dumped or the people the robbed or cheated. They are just using the "I'm okay with Jesus" card to get out of consequences of their actions and avoid having to actually do anything directly for the people harmed. I'm sure a lot of you have been parents and learned that marching your children over to another persons house, having them tell them what they did and then attempt to right it makes a much bigger and lasting impression on the child, who usually does NOT want to have to go through that again than just saying to Jesus "I'm sorry."

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:50 am

So true, everyone. I have enjoyed, and agreed with, the posts thus far.

I wanted to comment on the "bread and wine". What you state really is true, John. It is a form of cannabalism, regardless of its symbolism. And I wouldn't be surprised if THAT part of christianity was lifted from an earlier religion as well. Maybe not the exact REASON for it, . . . . . but the idea of a symbolic "eating of flesh and drinking of blood" is horrific. I have done this ceremony many times in my past. Often, for me, . . . it was a "make the group happy" sort of thing. I had a fear that if I didn't partake, someone would notice and "question my salvation". But now, . . . I just see it as another example of a barbaric culture. There would have been FAR better ways to "remember a death" than this sort of symbolism.

You know, . . . . . . . sometimes [via the biblical stories] I wonder if there WERE Hebrew deities that just wanted to see how gullible people would be. Abraham and Isaiac comes to mind, . . . so does this "eating my flesh and drinking my blood" thing. "Hey look!! . . . . They're actually doing it!!! hahahahaha"
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:04 am

Well, if you look at different cultures around the world, the eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the dead gave the people in that culture a way to perpetuate the dead person. The dead person lived on in the body of the person who had eaten him, which is true in a way. in some cultures they felt they honored the hero who died, whatever side of the war he fought on, and felt eating him imbued themselves with his spirit, strength, courage. There might be a little of that going on with the sharing of Jesus' flesh and blood.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:45 am

Sounds rather primative to me.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:46 am

gillyflower wrote:Sacrifice is a very interesting subject! It some ways it is an attempt to bargain with your gods. It seems to mean "I'll give this up if you'll do something for me in return." I have a hard time understanding why that would work. Why would the god care that you have given up X thing? What does he or she get out of it? Why does giving up something mean that your god forgives you for something else? It seems to me that atonement is not giving up something to a god, it is making the world better than it was, making other people's lives easier or happier, after you caused them harm.

I have a celebratory religion. We celebrate the good things that we get from the gods. That makes sense to me rather than the trying to bargain with a god.


Ottr addressed this a bit, in terms of making offerings, but in terms of sacrifice I'd like to elaborate a bit. I've probably said as much before, I can not yet think of a forum where I haven't posted on the issue of animal sacrifice, but I may have not mentioned human sacrifice (though I may have in the Druid thread).

From a (general) IE perspective the purpose of a human sacrifice had nothing to do for attonment, or the correcting of wrongs so it differs considerably from the Christian model. Human sacrifice, at least as can best be guessed from the available sources had to do with cosmogony and anthropogony; the making of the cosmos and the making of humans. Most of the IE cosmogenic myths had some degree of death and dismemberment as literally forming the cosmos or earth (the castration of Ouranos, the dismemberment of Yimir). Often humans are made from these pieces, or literally spring out of the earth. This establishes a sort of cycle of death (dismemberment), renewal, creation and most of the litterture I've read on human sacrifices in IE cultures (like Bruce Lincoln's "Death, War and Sacrifice") posit this model as the theological basis for human, and later animal (as substitution) sacrificial offerings found in IE cultures.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:02 am

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Sacrifice is a very interesting subject! It some ways it is an attempt to bargain with your gods. It seems to mean "I'll give this up if you'll do something for me in return." I have a hard time understanding why that would work. Why would the god care that you have given up X thing? What does he or she get out of it? Why does giving up something mean that your god forgives you for something else? It seems to me that atonement is not giving up something to a god, it is making the world better than it was, making other people's lives easier or happier, after you caused them harm.

I have a celebratory religion. We celebrate the good things that we get from the gods. That makes sense to me rather than the trying to bargain with a god.


Ottr addressed this a bit, in terms of making offerings, but in terms of sacrifice I'd like to elaborate a bit. I've probably said as much before, I can not yet think of a forum where I haven't posted on the issue of animal sacrifice, but I may have not mentioned human sacrifice (though I may have in the Druid thread).

From a (general) IE perspective the purpose of a human sacrifice had nothing to do for attonment, or the correcting of wrongs so it differs considerably from the Christian model. Human sacrifice, at least as can best be guessed from the available sources had to do with cosmogony and anthropogony; the making of the cosmos and the making of humans. Most of the IE cosmogenic myths had some degree of death and dismemberment as literally forming the cosmos or earth (the castration of Ouranos, the dismemberment of Yimir). Often humans are made from these pieces, or literally spring out of the earth. This establishes a sort of cycle of death (dismemberment), renewal, creation and most of the litterture I've read on human sacrifices in IE cultures (like Bruce Lincoln's "Death, War and Sacrifice") posit this model as the theological basis for human, and later animal (as substitution) sacrificial offerings found in IE cultures.

I don't think the issue here is really "why cannibalism" so much as the double standard Christians present over blood sacrifices. At the moment, and perhaps you can shed more light on the subject, no religion so far as I know practices blood sacrifices, literally or symbolically except Christianity by their act of partaking the host, representing the blood and body of the Christ. Yet they use this as a weapon in their arsenal against other religions (the advocacy of their god being the one and only not withstanding.)

Again, despite all of this, I fail to see how any god created evil in retaliation for a first human gaff. The litany of "sins" Christians have to prevent their followers of being worthy of the care and blessings of their creator deity is in the very least relative in nature. Some evil is universally immoral... theft, murder, ect. But there are others that are not looked upon as immoral in other cultures, therefore, not sinful, or (within their cultural society) evil.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:39 am

john5180 wrote: snip

I don't think the issue here is really "why cannibalism" so much as the double standard Christians present over blood sacrifices. At the moment, and perhaps you can shed more light on the subject, no religion so far as I know practices blood sacrifices, literally or symbolically except Christianity by their act of partaking the host, representing the blood and body of the Christ. Yet they use this as a weapon in their arsenal against other religions (the advocacy of their god being the one and only not withstanding.)

Again, despite all of this, I fail to see how any god created evil in retaliation for a first human gaff. The litany of "sins" Christians have to prevent their followers of being worthy of the care and blessings of their creator deity is in the very least relative in nature. Some evil is universally immoral... theft, murder, ect. But there are others that are not looked upon as immoral in other cultures, therefore, not sinful, or (within their cultural society) evil.

I can not think of any CR's who do advocate for the renewal of human sacrifice, but I do know many who have no issue with ritual slaughter, though I am unsure if you would class these as "blood sacrifices", blood is used, but it is not human (though there is a plant-human substitute method which has been developed) which could be seen in a similar light as the Christian Eucharist, though to different ends.

My experience with Christian interpretations of Genesis has humans and not their deity as responsible for evil, via free will and humans acting against the instruction of their deity. Though I would certainly agree this is problematic for a number of reasons (it flies in the face of OOO theology for one), and also agree that a notion of universal evil is highly problematic.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:07 pm

That, and the "death of something to cover up the mistake of another", . . . in otherwords, the killing of animals to make clothes for the [suddenly realized] naked Adam and Eve. Funny how that is.

Talk a little more about how it "flies in the face of OOO theolgy". Thanks.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:17 pm

DeavonReye wrote:That, and the "death of something to cover up the mistake of another", . . . in otherwords, the killing of animals to make clothes for the [suddenly realized] naked Adam and Eve. Funny how that is.

Talk a little more about how it "flies in the face of OOO theolgy". Thanks.

Well that being Ominscent, Omnipotent, Omnipresent (or alternitively/ additionally Omnibenevolent) as attributes of said deity.

Now the idea of free will becomes problematic because an omniscent deity would already know the choice one has made, and will ever make, infering that there really is no choice because it has alreay been made, "choice" is essentially predetermined because it can not be changed, otherwise said deity would be wrong. Their deity already knew they were going to fail, but was powerless to stop it, calling into question the aspect of omnipotence. Omnipresent, well if the did this when their deity was absent, then clearly he is not omnipresent. Omnibenevolent, not addressed as much in this particular instance, other than since their deity already knew they were going to fail, it could be considered cruel to have banished them for doing something they had no choice but to do.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:17 pm

Theodicy. Christianity has been working on it just this side of forever. And they have yet to find a solution.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:52 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Theodicy. Christianity has been working on it just this side of forever. And they have yet to find a solution.

It would seem that many have found an answer that they think answers the question, again the positing of free will as a catch all for humanity causing its own downfall.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:52 pm

Ah, yes, but the whole concept of an all-knowing, all powerful deity throws the whole idea of free will into extreme doubt and question. It's a catch-22 of their own making, really.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:49 am

Thank you for elaborating on your thought, Gorm.

There are a few places in the bible that definitely point to a god of "less than omniscient" characteristics. Of course, a lot of rationalizations need to be made to reconcile this, but "rationalization" is the name of the game with many christians . . . .that and "you're just taking that completely out of context".
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:29 am

Someone more versed in Biblical scripture could certainly elaborate on the aspects of OOO theology, if I am not mistaken, they are inferences rather than overtly stated, more akin to a God of philosophy than of the one as figured in the Christian Bible.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Davelaw on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:18 pm

the ooo; threw me off as well; both sides of the debate usually refer to the "Triple Omni"
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:42 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I can not think of any CR's who do advocate for the renewal of human sacrifice, but I do know many who have no issue with ritual slaughter, though I am unsure if you would class these as "blood sacrifices", blood is used, but it is not human (though there is a plant-human substitute method which has been developed) which could be seen in a similar light as the Christian Eucharist, though to different ends.

I don't know of any who do either, Gorm. That wasn't the point; well, entirely. What I was responding to was the rather snide dig about the reason the sacrifices in Judiasm stopped was due entirely to Jesus' crucifiction. The fact that other beliefs after the crucifixion story continued to offer blood sacrifices to appease their gods is a particular point of attack by Christians. I don't fully believe they quite understand that these sacrifices were for reasons other than the redemption of sins. In some cases, it was for a bountiful crop; or some other fertility rite. Sometimes the human sacrifices were presented to their gods as a thank you for winning a battle. It also honored their strength and bravery. And other time, as someone mentioned, just a matter of sharing with their deities.

I mentioned that the Christian ritual of eating Christ's body and drinking his blood in the form of wine and crackers was in itself a form od symbolic cannibalism that continues even to this day, yet they hold the idea of animal sacrifice in contempt. There's a double standard at play here, and I underscored that point via the symbolic cannibalism.

Perhaps our Christian friend was aslo unaware that the bulls that were sacrificed in Jewish Temples were later fed to the poor. It wasn't just a matter of spilling blood, there was a definate logical usefulness and purpose behind it all.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:My experience with Christian interpretations of Genesis has humans and not their deity as responsible for evil, via free will and humans acting against the instruction of their deity. Though I would certainly agree this is problematic for a number of reasons (it flies in the face of OOO theology for one), and also agree that a notion of universal evil is highly problematic.

I understand that even within Paganism, humans from time to time do things to piss off their gods(esses). However the punishment generally fits the crime, and it's handed out rather swiftly..... not an eternal thing that continues on even after the spirit leaves the physical body. And this punishment isn't sent down through the ages befalling on every ancestor forever afterward. It is a petty god who would even attempt this, and most likely would not last long before being kicked to the curb.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:44 am

I don't think that Christianity represents getting away from sacrifices at all.

I think they just hit the end of the ultimate game of one-up-man-ship.

Sacrifice is a sacrifice because the thing being sacrificed is important.

Some religions/cultures sacrificed food and drink. Some sacrificed animals, some even human beings. The Christians looked at all that and said "Oh yeah, well I sacrifice myself".

Of course, the rest of us have to deal with a bunch of zombies, but they don't care anymore.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by dattaswami on Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:38 am

Ottr wrote:I’ve a question that I was hoping to get some opinions on. I’ve looked through the threads, but I may have missed this being discussed before. If so, my apologies.......
Any thoughts, or opinions?

God only created both good and bad so that souls will not get bored.




The Lord is always
kindest

and is interested in the happiness of all the human beings that are His
children only. Gita says that the Lord is the father of all the living beings
(Aham Bija Pradah Pita). The father always tries to favour His children and
likes to see His children to be always happy. Originally only good path was
created and all the human beings were permanently happy forever.






There was no trace of sorrow in
their minds. That was called ‘Kruta Yuga’ or ‘Satya Yuga’ in which the deity of
justice was standing on four legs. But in due course of time the continuous
happiness started boring the human beings. One cannot eat sweets continuously.
This reminds the “Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility” in Economics. They were
bored and started feeling unhappy. Their minds were disturbed due to continuous
happiness.






Therefore there was a need of break
in the continuous happiness. That break can be only sorrow, which can be the
fruit of sin only. Therefore the chilies were needed as breaks in the
continuous eating of sweets.






Only for the happiness of His
children, the Lord created the sin. He gave freedom to the souls so that they
commit the sins and earn the chilies. Then the Lord arranged the life cycles by
keeping sweets and chilies alternatively. Such arrangement alone can bring the
real permanent happiness without boring. If it is continuous winter, you will
get bored.






Summer is necessary. If it is
continuous daytime it will be boring. Night is necessary. Even in the food the
Lord created both sweets and chilies so that His children will enjoy the meals
without boring. While eating the food, people will eat sweet dishes and hot
dishes alternatively. Similarly the life cycle was arranged. Therefore creation
of sin originally by the Lord shows only the infinite kindness of the Lord for His
children.






Even if you have done two sins
continuously, He is not giving the results of those two sins subsequently. In
between these two sins a sweet result of good deed is penetrated so that the
whole life cycle is an alternative arrangement of sweet and hot dishes i.e.,
results of good deeds and bad deeds. Such arrangement also shows the infinite
kindness of the Lord for His children.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:34 am

Dattaswami, please do not copy and paste from other sites in response to others like this. Please read the ROC and follow it.


Last edited by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:37 am

Gilly, you shouldn't feed the trolls. They'll hang around forever, breed like rats and we'll get swarmed with them. Call your local SPCA and get traps for them so they can be shipped back to the wild where they came from.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by dattaswami on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:38 am

gillyflower wrote:Dattaswami, do not copy and paste from other sites in response to others like this. Please read the ROC and follow it.

This is my own work only and my reply is proves my stand that God created both good and bad and is untouched by it. Only we human being only are affected by both good and bad.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:43 am

Sorry but I googled it and it came up under a different name. That makes it illegal, especially since you are not giving credit to the other person.

This post you are responding to me, and that makes it legal. In the other you are copying and pasting lectures. Don't do that please.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by dattaswami on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:46 am

gillyflower wrote:Sorry but I googled it and it came up under a different name. That makes it illegal, especially since you are not giving credit to the other person.

This post you are responding to me, and that makes it legal. In the other you are copying and pasting lectures. Don't do that please.

God is the creator of this entire universe which includes both good and bad. And is is untouched or unaffected by both. He created the entire universe for His own entertainment and He watches the universe as a cinema. In a cinema we see both good and bad and we are in actual do not affected by both.

God is beyond creation, HE created bad to test His devotees so that they will overcome the bad to come to Him.

Unfortunately people do not know these facts and they think that God created good only.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 am

Those are not facts. Those are your opinions. Everyone is allow their opinion. I'm glad that your god has movies. I hope he has popcorn too.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by dattaswami on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:51 am

gillyflower wrote:Those are not facts. Those are your opinions. Everyone is allow their opinion. I'm glad that your god has movies. I hope he has popcorn too.

Ok good observation, yes our God has movie, since He created this entire universe for His own entertainment. Ofcourse He do not need popcorn which we petty human beings needs!

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