Did the Christian god create evil?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:23 pm

Someone is under the impression that God has an "over inflated ego". Pharoah is an example of someone with an over inflated ego. He had the audacity to challenge the most high God. You see where this got him. Many people today display the same arrogance against God. It will not turn out any better for them.

"Obsessive need for adoration"? Any father raising children wants his children to love and respect him in his own house especially if he has provided food, shelter, and cared for their well-being, and sustained them for many years.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:28 pm

Is a God abusive and oppressive because he establishes standards for others to submit to (standards which result in the best life possible for those who adhere to them), and punishes those who refuse to submit when as the creator he has authority to expect compliance? What if this God always educates people to help them to avoid the dire consequences of rebellious actions? What if he extends warnings before executing judgement against them? And what if he allows time for them to correc any bad course that they are on before he takes action against them?... I don't think so.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:33 pm

I am a christian and I have not derided the Jewish culture for their animal sacrifices as instituted by the most high God. God is the creator of life, he is the source of life, and the sustainer of it. And therefore, all life belongs to him. It is properly within his right to require sacrifices if he deems it necessary. His son whom he loves, sacrificed his life willingly for mankind and then was resurrected back to life. As the source of life, God has the ability to re-create or resurrect those who die. However, when sacrifices are made to gods who neither have the power to create life (and therefore have no true ownership of life and should not be requiring that any life be given to them) or resurrect life, then it is something to deride.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:43 pm

There are many religions, many gods worshipped, may differing beliefs and writings. We all exist at this time and have pondered the same questions. Is there a creator? Why are we here? Why is there evil? And so forth... There have been a variety of answers to these questions. However, everyone's answer can't be right. But there is a truth that exists in these matters. Just as its true that we live and breathe right now. Some want to categorize the God that I worship as the "christian" god, not the universal god. In fact,though, I know and understand the God I worship to be the
the Creator of the umiversal. He is the creator of all groups of people on the earth. Unfortunately, he is not worshipped or even recognized by all of his human creation. Some choose to worship gods who are as dead as the tree that was cut down for the purpose of carving the god's form in it.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:58 pm

LOL I think that you will have to define truth. The god you worship is a Christian god. It isn't a god that is worshipped by members of any other religion than Christian. Now you may think he is the only god but I have met more gods that you have and I guarantee that he is not only not the only one, he is not the "universal" (and I think you'd better define that too!) god. That is my UPG and I trust my UPG over a strangers view of things.

I don't think you can prove that Yahweh created the universe or all the people but you are welcome to try. Please give us your proof.

It matters not whether you believe my gods are alive or dead. They aren't your gods just as your god is not mine. My gods speak to me every day. That is all I need.

It is funny you mention wood... is that a cross you worship, is that Yahweh's form, a wooden cross?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:01 pm

oooooh, we have spam.

Not my favorite dinner food, really light on substance, leaving a questionable taste in the mouth, and without nutritive value, but certainly cheap.

The sequential posts are responding to the voices in your head? Or do you think that sequential posts can provide the illusion of a drive to alter the thread to one centered on your own faith?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:01 pm

Luvedlessleah wrote:I am a christian and I have not derided the Jewish culture for their animal sacrifices as instituted by the most high God. God is the creator of life, he is the source of life, and the sustainer of it. And therefore, all life belongs to him. It is properly within his right to require sacrifices if he deems it necessary. His son whom he loves, sacrificed his life willingly for mankind and then was resurrected back to life. As the source of life, God has the ability to re-create or resurrect those who die. However, when sacrifices are made to gods who neither have the power to create life (and therefore have no true ownership of life and should not be requiring that any life be given to them) or resurrect life, then it is something to deride.

Yahweh did not create me. That is a religious myth that is only believed by some members of your religion. Your life can belong to Yahweh but my life belongs to me. If you want to sacrifice your children to him because you feel it is necessary, I hope you will tell us so that we can get you some help.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:04 pm

Luvedlessleah wrote:I am a christian and I have not derided the Jewish culture for their animal sacrifices as instituted by the most high God. God is the creator of life, he is the source of life, and the sustainer of it. And therefore, all life belongs to him. It is properly within his right to require sacrifices if he deems it necessary. His son whom he loves, sacrificed his life willingly for mankind and then was resurrected back to life. As the source of life, God has the ability to re-create or resurrect those who die. However, when sacrifices are made to gods who neither have the power to create life (and therefore have no true ownership of life and should not be requiring that any life be given to them) or resurrect life, then it is something to deride.



But I would like to add that the scriptures indicate that animal sacrifices are no longer required in a persons worship to God. Jesus' sacrificial death is superior to any animal sacrifice that was necessary under the Mosaic law. Jesus' sacrifice is all that is needed to cover the sins on mankind.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:10 pm

It doesn't say that anywhere in the bible. That's something Evangelicals have decided all on their own. They cherry pick the parts from the bible that they like and leave the rest.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:17 pm

References to animal sacrifice appear in the New Testament, such as the parents of Jesus sacrificing two doves (Luke 2:24) and the Apostle Paul performing a Nazirite vow even after the death of Christ (Acts 21:23-26).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Luvedlessleah on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:24 pm

Nope, I do not incorporate the wooden cross or any other cross in my worship as a christian. And I do not foresee my having to sacrifice any children I may have to the creator that I worship. There's differing of opinion and practices even among people who call themselves christians.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:25 pm

What if your god demands that you sacrifice your children? Will you kill them?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:27 pm

I have no problem with anyone incorporating holy symbols in their religious practice. I am quite aware that people are sophisticated enough to know that the symbol is not the god. Are you?

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:49 pm

I really don't respond well to rapid fire random posts from one person concerning a particular subject. They imply several things, Leigh.... first, that you only value your opinion; that you do not care to debate a subject you would surly come out second place in; and you lack creativity enough to carry on a conversation.... either on line or in person.

Now if you wish to carry on a sane conversation, we can begin a separate thread on the relative merits of your god's behavior and superiority. Or we can just agree that your god's performance with every encounter with humans is worse than a school yard bully who has the principal's expressed permission to misbehave.

I would also suggest that since your god is a Christian god (pretty much exclusively), and if you wish to be taken seriously by posters who worship other gods than this one, that when you express the belief that he is either creator god, or the one and only god, you state clearly that it is your opinion. You state this as a fact, when it can not be proven to be fact at all. However if you do not wish to be taken seriously, it's your choice. Personally, I'd rather be taken seriously than be considered the class clown.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:14 pm

Luvedlessleah wrote:Is a God abusive and oppressive because he establishes standards for others to submit to (standards which result in the best life possible for those who adhere to them), and punishes those who refuse to submit when as the creator he has authority to expect compliance? What if this God always educates people to help them to avoid the dire consequences of rebellious actions? What if he extends warnings before executing judgement against them? And what if he allows time for them to correc any bad course that they are on before he takes action against them?... I don't think so.

I consider your god to be abusive and oppressive because he sets standards he himself can not follow. Didn't your god set forth a commandment against murder? Of course we know committing a murder is different than killing someone who would cause us or our family harm, so let's stick with the definition of murder...... Does killing the first born child not fall under the category of murder? Were these children in a position to be a threat to your Christian god? And what god who is not abusive or oppressive continues his punishment against generations of those who dared cross him?

You asked something earlier about a human father demanding the respect of his children. I'm not much of an authority on being a father..... I only have five children..... but I know this much, any respect I have accumulated through the years hasn't been from forcing my children to respect me or else and not offering anything but the most drastic punishment for their disobedience. First if I wanted them to follow a house rule, I had to insure that I led by example.... rather led by good example. Your god gets failing grades in that regard, yet Christians still insist on using the parental control example when trying to justify their god's irrational behavior.

In any situation you present, you should first take a look at the behavior of your god and ask yourself what type example is he setting. Is it a good moral example? Or is it one of an abusive oppressive god with an unhealthy need for adoration? Any god who can not follow his own set of rules for existence, IMO, has no reason to complain when people of better morals choose to no longer believe he is the supreme god of the universe, and begin to seek other gods to follow.

The reason Jews no longer use blood sacrifice is because since the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed the second time by the Romans, there have been no priests to conduct the ceremony and consecrate the offerings. Once the temple is restored, and new high priests installed, the practice just may resume. We'll see after the restoration of the temple. The crucifixion of Jesus did not take the need for that practice away from the Jews. That is a Paulian decree... It isn't found anywhere in the scripture other than in the writings of Paul.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:59 pm

Some thoughts on your posts:

Luvedlessleah wrote:
Obviously, God did not have Moses go to pharoah with the desire to kill anybody's firstborn. One cannot expect the outcome to be rosy, or the consequences to be minimal, a mere slap on the wrist, for continued, deliberate rebellion against his authority. This is the way God handled the situation, in his wisdom as the creator.

So, bronze age barbarity and piles of children was his best choice? Hmmmmm.....

Luvedlessleah wrote:Is a God abusive and oppressive because he establishes standards for others to submit to (standards which result in the best life possible for those who adhere to them), and punishes those who refuse to submit when as the creator he has authority to expect compliance? What if this God always educates people to help them to avoid the dire consequences of rebellious actions? What if he extends warnings before executing judgement against them? And what if he allows time for them to correc any bad course that they are on before he takes action against them?... I don't think so.

God doesn't live up to his OWN "standards". Then he changes the rules whenever it suits him and/or makes for himself a loophole so he could have a "way out" when it looks exactly as it really is, . . . immoral and unethical behavior. The god who you are mentioning here is basically the "mafia boss" who expects you do dole out your "protection money", or he'll break your legs.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Ottr on Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:18 am

Luvedlessleah wrote:Jesus' sacrifice is all that is needed to cover the sins on mankind.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I can’t see this as anything but cowardly. Where is the personal responsibility for ones own actions when you allow another to “stand in” for you? And how is this moral?
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:39 am

It isn't. It is a way for people to REALLY do what they want, but ultimately take no personal responsibility for it, . . . because "Jesus will forgive my sins if I'm sincere". It also takes a life of a reprobate, murderer, rapist, etc. and gives them a fancy afterlife JUST for mentally accepting something, . . . when the pesron who is a giver, loves people, and is selfless is condemned because of a "thought crime". It is a horrible mechanism for a religion's devoutees to cling to.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:11 am

Luvedlessleah wrote:I am a christian and I have not derided the Jewish culture for their animal sacrifices as instituted by the most high God. God is the creator of life, he is the source of life, and the sustainer of it. And therefore, all life belongs to him. It is properly within his right to require sacrifices if he deems it necessary. His son whom he loves, sacrificed his life willingly for mankind and then was resurrected back to life. As the source of life, God has the ability to re-create or resurrect those who die. However, when sacrifices are made to gods who neither have the power to create life (and therefore have no true ownership of life and should not be requiring that any life be given to them) or resurrect life, then it is something to deride.

Okay I found the post of yours I would like to respond to, since we're all being lectured as to the way of the universe and how the son of YHWH gave up his life for the benefit of all humanity.

My question is what value is the life of a being who is:
1. One and the same as the deity he called father, essentially an Avatar of YHWH.
2. Whose death lasted all of three days, before he was brought back to life.
3. That since YHWH is omniscient, had this all planned out since time immemorial.

Often this sacrifice is emotionally appealed to by stating that "YHWH so loved the world that he gave up his only begotten son", when considered in light of the above three statements, is not giving up anything. Jesus surely suffered, torture and death are no laughing matter, however the difference is that he got to come back to life, generally held to be in a literal sense (the resurrection of both flesh and spirit).

We pathetic, sinful humans have for time immemorial sacrificed our trite lives in defense or substitution of others, but we do not have the ability to bring ourselves back to life. Mothers who had allowed their sons to go off to war in defense of King and country, did not have the comfort of knowing their sons would only be dead for three days, they stayed dead. I've no trouble with people seeing more deep or significant meaning behind this, nor do I want to belittle someones sacred text, but considering how often this is waved in the face of non-Christians, as if to say "How dare you not be Christian, you ungrateful sinner", well you'll get my interpretation of events, couched in a theological argument.

Now, having said all that I'll come to my second point, which is your claim that "YHWH is the source of life". Unless you are appallingly ignorant of the existence of other religions, cosmologies and deities, making such a claim is quite audacious. May I ask what your source for such a statement is? Am I safe in assuming it is the Christian Bible? Good, then surely you must recognize that the authority of one religions holy book extends only to those who hold it as an authoritative source of information? As a polytheist, I do not hold it as authoritative, nor does the monotheistic model of deity mesh particularly well with the variety of religious experience, as you are likely to find if you poke around these forums, we're a pretty diverse assortment.

My advice is that if you want others to heed your dire warnings of the need for salvation, or (more likely) to even respect your position, you might want avoid belittling other people's deities as your first action in the forum.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Ottr on Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:03 pm

DeavonReye wrote:It isn't. It is a way for people to REALLY do what they want, but ultimately take no personal responsibility for it, . . . because "Jesus will forgive my sins if I'm sincere". It also takes a life of a reprobate, murderer, rapist, etc. and gives them a fancy afterlife JUST for mentally accepting something, . . . when the pesron who is a giver, loves people, and is selfless is condemned because of a "thought crime". It is a horrible mechanism for a religion's devoutees to cling to.

Hi Deavon …
I’m a mom of three fantastic kids. I’ve always taught them to take responsibility for their actions. If they screw up, they step up to the plate, admit their mistake, and learn something in the process of righting their wrong.
It's a conflicting message when on one hand you advocate them taking personal responsibility in their life, and yet on the other hand encourage them to stand by and allow someone else to suffer the consequences for the wrong they may have done.
It’s just one part of the christian religion that never made any sense to me.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:11 pm

Ottr, . . . it is necessary in order for people to see that "they are not good enough and need someone better to save them". If "Jesus's sacrifice" is in any part of a religion, that can be the only conclusion. For a person to die for someone who COULD have atoned for wrongs themself, it would make no sense. So, I couldn't even be a moderate or even liberal christian if it has "a suffering Jesus for our sins" as a doctrine.

Good post, Ottr.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by john5180 on Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:25 am

DeavonReye wrote:Ottr, . . . it is necessary in order for people to see that "they are not good enough and need someone better to save them". If "Jesus's sacrifice" is in any part of a religion, that can be the only conclusion. For a person to die for someone who COULD have atoned for wrongs themself, it would make no sense. So, I couldn't even be a moderate or even liberal christian if it has "a suffering Jesus for our sins" as a doctrine.

Good post, Ottr.

And again, it's my opinion that this is something devised by man, not ordained by any particular god. The idea of human sacrifice is as old as religions itself, and transferring this sacrifice to an animal rather than another human is basically less repulsive, for at least then the meat of the sacrifice could be given to the poor for food.

The idea that Christianity places this one particular human sacrifice on some pedestal, and condemns other religions for their past involvement in animal sacrifice is repugnant, and two faced. Even today with the eating of bread and drinking of wine in a symbolic gesture of partaking the flesh and blood of he who was sacrificed smacks of cannibalism..... Another double standard set by that religion, sympathetic to the god who sets the rules even he himself can not adhere to.

Both you and Ottr are right about being responsible for your own actions.... good or bad. The idea of someone doing as one pleases, and believing that there would be no consequences for the offender because there was this "sacrificial lamb" in human form who either would, or had taken your place of responsibility over your actions smacks of total lack of responsibility as a human being. So much for having a higher moral integrity, huh?
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:43 am

Sacrifice is a very interesting subject! It some ways it is an attempt to bargain with your gods. It seems to mean "I'll give this up if you'll do something for me in return." I have a hard time understanding why that would work. Why would the god care that you have given up X thing? What does he or she get out of it? Why does giving up something mean that your god forgives you for something else? It seems to me that atonement is not giving up something to a god, it is making the world better than it was, making other people's lives easier or happier, after you caused them harm.

I have a celebratory religion. We celebrate the good things that we get from the gods. That makes sense to me rather than the trying to bargain with a god.

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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Ottr on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:29 am

john5180 wrote:Even today with the eating of bread and drinking of wine in a symbolic gesture of partaking the flesh and blood of he who was sacrificed smacks of cannibalism..... Another double standard set by that religion, sympathetic to the god who sets the rules even he himself can not adhere to.


Hi John5180 …
I’ve thought this myself. And I wonder sometimes if this thought enters the christian mind when they take communion, or if this tradition is so engrained within the religion that they don’t even realize the symbolism behind the ritual.

john5180 wrote:Both you and Ottr are right about being responsible for your own actions.... good or bad. The idea of someone doing as one pleases, and believing that there would be no consequences for the offender because there was this "sacrificial lamb" in human form who either would, or had taken your place of responsibility over your actions smacks of total lack of responsibility as a human being. So much for having a higher moral integrity, huh?

Another issue I have with this whole idea, is that oftentimes christian folks who have done great wrong declare that they have found Jesus, (like he was lost or something) and have been forgiven their sins. Yet, the folks they have hurt, hear nothing from them in the way of even an apology. It’s as though they think in finding their lost god and apologizing to him, all is well. Their hurtful actions have been magically erased from the memory of those wronged, and life for the christian goes on in blissful ignorance of the damage they have caused.
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Re: Did the Christian god create evil?

Post by Ottr on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:36 am

gillyflower wrote:Sacrifice is a very interesting subject! It some ways it is an attempt to bargain with your gods. It seems to mean "I'll give this up if you'll do something for me in return." I have a hard time understanding why that would work. Why would the god care that you have given up X thing? What does he or she get out of it? Why does giving up something mean that your god forgives you for something else? It seems to me that atonement is not giving up something to a god, it is making the world better than it was, making other people's lives easier or happier, after you caused them harm.

I have a celebratory religion. We celebrate the good things that we get from the gods. That makes sense to me rather than the trying to bargain with a god.

Hi Gilly …
As a Heathen, I share with my Gods. I don’t expect a pass for bad behavior when I set out honey or a cup o' coffee, it’s more of a gift and an acknowledgement of their presence in my life.
I realize that they may not get anything physically from the gift I have given, but it is the respectful remembrance that I’m shooting for. Also, most of my gifts are given under a tree on our property that was struck by lightning, and the outside critters enjoy what’s been left, so they too benefit from the gift.
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