Could you do it?

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Could you do it?

Post by wontgetfooledagain on Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Well.. I don't know how many Christians are here yet.... but I've often wondered about something.. and I wanted to bring it up.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called the Abrahamic faiths. Abraham is essentially the father of these religions and admired greatly for his faith in God. His faith was so strong that he was willing to kill his own son to prove it.

Would you be able to do the same? If your God communicated to you that he wanted you to kill your child... would you do it? After all... it appears Abraham was going to do it.. and people admire him for that.

Rob

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:47 pm

Good question! I don't think I could. Smile

And don't be shy about starting Christian debate topics. You may find some new folks rolling in in about a month, and it'll be good to at least have topics started.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:58 pm

No.

But the answer has nothing to do with faith.

My gods would never ask that of me, seriously expecting me to do it. It would be to test my resolve to fight even them, not to see how far I would go for them.
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:57 pm

It's sometimes hard to know what's going to be the consequences of an action, if the outcome is good or bad. (Chiyo's story about the farmer's son) It seems to me that we only have the actions of people to judge and even if ultimately good comes out of an action, does that affect that the action itself is bad?

I'm rambling. The thing is if Joe the Plumber or Yahweh asked me to kill my child, it really doesn't make much difference. They would both be asking me to do something illegal, something that other people would consider heinous - isn't the word for it filicide? They are asking me to do something I consider beyond the pale. Ask yourself what you'd think of Joe the Plumber if he asked such a thing of you - right. Why would you think that a god who asked that was a good god?
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by MaineCaptain on Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:03 pm

I agree Gilly.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by HailToTheSquirrel on Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:43 pm

I imagine you really are asking in the context of a Christian as opposed to the other beliefs out there. I'm not a Christian, but to answer the question in the context I think you mean, (ie. I'll pretend I'm a Christian for this one and that I believe in THE Christian God).

The answer for me is still no. Even if I knew for certain that there was one true God and he/she/it asked me to do that, I would not. I'd prefer to burn in hell for disobedience in order to spare my son.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by OmarKhayyam on Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:13 pm

The problem I have with this story is that supposedly god is omni everything. He KNOWS what you believe and how serious you are about it. You don't NEED to prove anything. He already knows.

So to me it is dumb suggestion. And supposedly god ain't dumb.
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:56 pm

I never believed that story. I never believed that any benevolent caring god would demand that anyone kill to prove their love of Him.

I think, like the story of the ark, this was exaggerated. One of those, "Hey! THIS guy believed THIS MUCH... what about you?", stories.

So I know I would never be told to choose between God and my children, not by Him, anyway.

No, I would not kill my child for anyone or anything.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Redfrog on Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:16 pm

If God needs my money he can ask for it himself. If God needs a war fought in the Mid.east he can go fight it for himself.

To me such a test is human ego foolishness, plain and simple. Or the test of a petty, little, jealous, tyrant that feels no love. Honestly folks we are speaking about the maker of all things!!!! If God there fore needed my son in his kingdom, then he is in full power to take him. If he (God) was simply testing my faith then F*** him.

My universe has no need for such little games. The mystery of which I am a part asks nothing of me. That I freely choose to engage within that mystery is sufficient. Were I to choose otherwise that would be sufficient.

So my answer to the OP is no. No God, worth my attention would ever ask such a thing of me.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Beribee on Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:48 pm

tmarie64 wrote:I never believed that story. I never believed that any benevolent caring god would demand that anyone kill to prove their love of Him.

I think, like the story of the ark, this was exaggerated. One of those, "Hey! THIS guy believed THIS MUCH... what about you?", stories.

So I know I would never be told to choose between God and my children, not by Him, anyway.

No, I would not kill my child for anyone or anything.


My thoughts exactly....
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:02 pm

That story is a perfect example of my theory.... The bible is a collection of folk stories, handed down over generations before they were written down.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by wontgetfooledagain on Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:02 pm

The reason I ask this question is in regards to a conversation I had with a Christian on another forum. He told me that Abraham is someone who Christians aspire to be like. Abraham's faith in God was so strong that he was going to kill his own son... and he felt this was a good thing. I found that very disturbing. But I'm sure he's not alone. In fact... these religions that we call Abrahamic religions use Abraham as an example of strong faith in God. There is no doubt that there are millions and millions of people who believe the same way.

And what that tells me is that people will commit unspeakable acts of evil if they feel they've got God on their side. And just a fleeting glance at the history of these religions will confirm that.

So... I wonder if these Christians, who really do admire Abraham, would do what he was supposedly going to do. Would they kill their own child if a God told them to? It may be hypothetical.. but it's a very important question in my opinion. After all.. this God, according to the Bible, HAS asked a human to kill his own son. And these Christians look up to Abraham for his strong faith in God. If that's the case would they really do what Abraham was about to do?

If they would refuse.. then they are admitting that they will only go so far for their God... and would disobey him. And also would be admitting what Abraham was about to do was wrong... AND that the request of this God was also wrong. So I'm curious ... why would you admire Abraham ... or worship this God.. if that is the case?


Rob

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by wontgetfooledagain on Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:29 pm

tmarie64 wrote:That story is a perfect example of my theory.... The bible is a collection of folk stories, handed down over generations before they were written down.


Yes.. exactly. So it amazes me that people actually believe that "God" (if there is one..) had anything to do with the Bible. Man's fingerprint is all over it...

Rob

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Redfrog on Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:30 pm

BUUUUUT! Rob......God inspired those finger prints! cyclops

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by wontgetfooledagain on Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:33 pm

Redfrog wrote:BUUUUUT! Rob......God inspired those finger prints! cyclops

Yes.. and that's what scares me. Wink

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Redfrog on Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:35 pm

Scares me tooooooo! affraid

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Mintie on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:44 am

No, never! I don't have children (and I can't), but if I heard that idea in my head I would commit myself to the psych ward Shocked
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by gillyflower on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:59 am

It is terribly ironic to me that people say when you say that you are talking to your gods "Do they tell you to hurt other people?" If the "voices" tell you to do bad things like, say, kill your children, then they sure don't think it is their god! And yet, in that bible story, Abraham is hearing exactly that.
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Mintie on Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:08 am

gillyflower wrote:It is terribly ironic to me that people say when you say that you are talking to your gods "Do they tell you to hurt other people?" If the "voices" tell you to do bad things like, say, kill your children, then they sure don't think it is their god! And yet, in that bible story, Abraham is hearing exactly that.

A former friend of mine is a Fundie and he has a way of twisting everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. He doesn't make any decision until he has read the Bible and prayed on it. In his mind, everything he does is for God's glory.
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Redfrog on Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:22 am

I have said this for a very long that there is a very strange double think that happens in these religions.
While espousing the gospel of peace and love, they kill witches and condemn homosexuals?????
When called out on it the fall back is “You must have faith in God”????? Never honestly looking squarely at the schism?????
My self I am incapable of accepting that kind of disparity. It simply will not stand up to honest scrutiny. And then couple that with the supposed inerrant nature of the bible and the espoused perfection of bible god, and you have an intentional/unintentional double think that demands that reason and logic be redirected into blind faith.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by wmdkitty on Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:51 pm

^^^Redfrog is right^^^

No god worthy of the title would *ever* ask a parent to kill their child.
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by wmdkitty on Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:52 pm

Mintie wrote:
gillyflower wrote:It is terribly ironic to me that people say when you say that you are talking to your gods "Do they tell you to hurt other people?" If the "voices" tell you to do bad things like, say, kill your children, then they sure don't think it is their god! And yet, in that bible story, Abraham is hearing exactly that.

A former friend of mine is a Fundie and he has a way of twisting everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. He doesn't make any decision until he has read the Bible and prayed on it. In his mind, everything he does is for God's glory.

...

everything?


...

O_o

That's ... creepy.
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Mintie on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:12 pm

WMDKitty wrote:
Mintie wrote:
gillyflower wrote:It is terribly ironic to me that people say when you say that you are talking to your gods "Do they tell you to hurt other people?" If the "voices" tell you to do bad things like, say, kill your children, then they sure don't think it is their god! And yet, in that bible story, Abraham is hearing exactly that.

A former friend of mine is a Fundie and he has a way of twisting everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. He doesn't make any decision until he has read the Bible and prayed on it. In his mind, everything he does is for God's glory.

...

everything?


...

O_o

That's ... creepy.

Creepy you said? That guy scares me so much it's not even funny affraid When he starts about the Bible and God, he gets a manic look that makes me believe he is truly crazy...
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Re: Could you do it?

Post by gillyflower on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:20 pm

Not to give you any ideas but a lot of mentally ill people grab hold of religion because (my opinion) it is more acceptable as an obsession and other people will actually encourage them in it. It is scary.

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Re: Could you do it?

Post by Mintie on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:28 pm

gillyflower wrote:Not to give you any ideas but a lot of mentally ill people grab hold of religion because (my opinion) it is more acceptable as an obsession and other people will actually encourage them in it. It is scary.

I know that his family worries a lot about him, he used to be a great guy who loved fun...not anymore.
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Re: Could you do it?

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