Where the Bible makes no sense at all

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:53 pm

DotNotInOz wrote::::::: waves the "absolutely right on" flag for John's reply above :::::

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to wrap my head around Dave's point that creating a historical backlog "in a mature state" isn't deceptive.

If all of creation came into being at the point of Adam and Eve's advent 6000 years ago, then the backlog absolutely is deceptive since there was nothing there previously to produce those artifacts. Positing that all the dinosaur-era fossils we find were placed 6000 years ago would mean that no such creatures existed in any form but their fossilized remains. People are aware that skeletal remains signify a body once alive since we've direct experience of that occurrence.

Thus, a deity who lays down fossil skeletons as their "mature state" so that people will think them to be creatures who lived and died can scarcely be said to have done anything but deceive.

its not deceptive if it was actually created; the past is real; the fossils are real- but we know by divine means that it was called into existence at the start of human history
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:54 pm

jumbojava wrote:It's simple for me: If Christianity wants non-Christian faiths to respect it then Christianity in return should respect ALL non-Christian faiths.

Christianity teaching that all non-Christian faiths are of the devil is NOT respect in any form of the word.

If Christianity cannot respect ALL other faiths then it shouldnt bitch about getting no respect.

you are absolutely correct: we should expect no quarter and receive none
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:56 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Yes, java, . . . . I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you, either. The only way they [christians] can be is that ANY other religion, that is not "Jesus as savior", is in league with "Satan deception", ONLY. Because of what they are, . . . they CANNOT be any other way. There IS nothing else than that YOU, jumbojava, are deceived by Satan, so they MUST tell you that you "are on the wrong path that leads to destruction".

The problem is that they refuse to give their own religion a TRUE look, . . . to see all the errors and all the things that make absolutely no sense at all. However, I think things are changing. A lot of information has recently become more available to people and I believe that this fact will eventually be the doom of the religion. . . . . . . . .and if not "doom of it", . . . a serious damaging.


not a doom or damaging-just force back into our rightful place as "another snake cult"-classical reference
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:57 pm

Davelaw wrote:
its not deceptive if it was actually created; the past is real; the fossils are real- but we know by divine means that it was called into existence at the start of human history

Help me out here, Dave. Are you saying that these "things that didn't occur" WERE created as if they had been, . . . in other words, creating its past, too?
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:24 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote::::::: waves the "absolutely right on" flag for John's reply above :::::

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to wrap my head around Dave's point that creating a historical backlog "in a mature state" isn't deceptive.

If all of creation came into being at the point of Adam and Eve's advent 6000 years ago, then the backlog absolutely is deceptive since there was nothing there previously to produce those artifacts. Positing that all the dinosaur-era fossils we find were placed 6000 years ago would mean that no such creatures existed in any form but their fossilized remains. People are aware that skeletal remains signify a body once alive since we've direct experience of that occurrence.

Thus, a deity who lays down fossil skeletons as their "mature state" so that people will think them to be creatures who lived and died can scarcely be said to have done anything but deceive.

its not deceptive if it was actually created; the past is real; the fossils are real- but we know by divine means that it was called into existence at the start of human history
I wouldnt call them fossils. I call them props.

They were never alive yet we are supposed to believe it was alive at one time?

Um, yea, sureyoubetchya.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:47 pm

they were alive-they just never existed
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:12 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
jumbojava wrote:It's simple for me: If Christianity wants non-Christian faiths to respect it then Christianity in return should respect ALL non-Christian faiths.

Christianity teaching that all non-Christian faiths are of the devil is NOT respect in any form of the word.

If Christianity cannot respect ALL other faiths then it shouldnt bitch about getting no respect.

Yeah, well, I ain't holdin' my breath waiting for this to happen, are you?

Islam sails that same boat. So does Judaism although to a lesser degree typically (unless you ask the Orthodox or Conservatives what they think of "Messianic" Jews [quotes indicating sarcasm] or to some extent Reform.)

I recall someone once asking that if Christianity was more tolerant of non-Christian faiths would it still be Christianity.

IMHO; nope.


DeavonReye wrote:Yes, java, . . . . I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you, either. The only way they [christians] can be is that ANY other religion, that is not "Jesus as savior", is in league with "Satan deception", ONLY. Because of what they are, . . . they CANNOT be any other way. There IS nothing else than that YOU, jumbojava, are deceived by Satan, so they MUST tell you that you "are on the wrong path that leads to destruction".
Yep.

And I will continue avoid them like the plague.


The problem is that they refuse to give their own religion a TRUE look, . . . to see all the errors and all the things that make absolutely no sense at all. However, I think things are changing. A lot of information has recently become more available to people and I believe that this fact will eventually be the doom of the religion. . . . . . . . .and if not "doom of it", . . . a serious damaging.
Would that be a bad thing?
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:15 pm

Davelaw wrote:they were alive-they just never existed
If they never existed then they were never alive.

Why believe in something that never existed?

It makes no sense to believe in a fake past for it is simply fake.

What purpose does a fake past serve?
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:26 am

Davelaw wrote:they were alive-they just never existed

This has to be said with tongue in cheek! There is no way an educated man, obviously not living in a log cabin in the woods cut off from all society can honestly believe this.

Dave.... I might be from the country, but I've been to town. No one......!..... and I mean no one can take you at face value on this comment.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:37 am

john5180 wrote:
Davelaw wrote:they were alive-they just never existed

This has to be said with tongue in cheek! There is no way an educated man, obviously not living in a log cabin in the woods cut off from all society can honestly believe this.

Dave.... I might be from the country, but I've been to town. No one......!..... and I mean no one can take you at face value on this comment.
I dunno, John. I think he was being serious....

If he was, well it makes one wonder just what else in the bible may have never existed.....???
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:40 am

jumbojava wrote:
Davelaw wrote:they were alive-they just never existed
If they never existed then they were never alive.

Why believe in something that never existed?

It makes no sense to believe in a fake past for it is simply fake.

What purpose does a fake past serve?

If this be true, where is the separation between truth, and fraud. Jesus was born of a virgin who never had sex with a man. Snakes spoke to Eve. And a donkey spoke to Ballaam. Earth and all that inhabit it are no more than 10,000 years old (at the oldest), and the world is flat, with monsters waiting just over the edge to eat unwary sailors when they go too far. And finally, Dorthy clicked her ruby slippers three times while repeating "There's no place like home", left Oz and woke in her own snug little bed back in Kansas.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:06 am

"Words mean whatever I say they mean, that's all."

Dave and Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty would understand each other.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Kartari on Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:41 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:

john5180 wrote:I do realize that times change, and dangers change as well. But even in biblical times there were dangers; if not from crazy pedophiles in the community, a 60 mile trip through a desert had to be full of natural dangers; enough so that people traveled in caravans rather than risking the trip alone. I refuse to believe for even a nano-second that any parent, filled with the knowledge of the divinity of their son or not would be that unaware of the where a bouts of one of their children. The whole concept is ridiculous to me.

All your points were good but this one stands out for my comment.

Yes times have changed, but isn't this the same Jesus that was endanger of being killed as a baby by, Herod? wasn't it, now I am not a biblical scholar, but since this supposed man/god was so important you would think everyone would be more cautious, And although all the adults had terrible memories, (wasn't this the child that an Angel supposedly announced to both Mary and Joseph they were birthing the "son of god"??)

The stories are clearly written by different people, and it is obvious that these different people did not even read each others writings.

If any of this had happened and this man(child)god wanted to speak with the Temple priests, wouldn't it have been honourable and decent to let his (Earthly) parents know he desired to do so? Not just sneak off and worry these obviously handicapped people? (Handicapped as in bad memories, not remembering their boy was supposed to be a god).

Indeed, even if Mary were to forget being visited by an angel that told her she was pregnant with God's son (a practical impossibility, I would imagine!), how could she and Joseph conveniently also forget that Jesus was born by God WITHOUT the two having ever had sex? I think I'd never forget something like that were I in Joseph's place... that's not something that occurs very often, God impregnating your wife, lol!

It also makes no sense that Mary and Joseph didn't realize that Jesus was missing for an entire day, son of God or not. No competent and sane mother would ever forget to think about their twelve year old son's whereabouts for such a long time, whether today or back then. I know that kids grew up faster in those days, but it's not like he was a financially independent adult living on his own yet.

As for Jesus being a smart-a$$, that I can understand better though. At least according to some Christians, Jesus was fully a human incarnation, meaning he was as limited as any other human being, and relied on God (the Father) for his later miraculous powers and foreknowledge. As such, he would be subject to the human experience, it's positives and negatives. His parents though didn't seem to be put off in the least by his behavior, which makes no sense; then again, maybe they feared what God would do to them if they scolded Jesus. That could be pretty intimidating, lol!

I agree that this (as well as many other Biblical stories) are rather flawed in their logic. They were apparently written with certain metaphorical lessons in mind, and were not well analyzed for their realism.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:19 pm

Kartari wrote:
MaineCaptain wrote:

john5180 wrote:I do realize that times change, and dangers change as well. But even in biblical times there were dangers; if not from crazy pedophiles in the community, a 60 mile trip through a desert had to be full of natural dangers; enough so that people traveled in caravans rather than risking the trip alone. I refuse to believe for even a nano-second that any parent, filled with the knowledge of the divinity of their son or not would be that unaware of the where a bouts of one of their children. The whole concept is ridiculous to me.

All your points were good but this one stands out for my comment.

Yes times have changed, but isn't this the same Jesus that was endanger of being killed as a baby by, Herod? wasn't it, now I am not a biblical scholar, but since this supposed man/god was so important you would think everyone would be more cautious, And although all the adults had terrible memories, (wasn't this the child that an Angel supposedly announced to both Mary and Joseph they were birthing the "son of god"??)

The stories are clearly written by different people, and it is obvious that these different people did not even read each others writings.

If any of this had happened and this man(child)god wanted to speak with the Temple priests, wouldn't it have been honourable and decent to let his (Earthly) parents know he desired to do so? Not just sneak off and worry these obviously handicapped people? (Handicapped as in bad memories, not remembering their boy was supposed to be a god).

Indeed, even if Mary were to forget being visited by an angel that told her she was pregnant with God's son (a practical impossibility, I would imagine!), how could she and Joseph conveniently also forget that Jesus was born by God WITHOUT the two having ever had sex? I think I'd never forget something like that were I in Joseph's place... that's not something that occurs very often, God impregnating your wife, lol!

only Roman catholics try to hide the fact that Jesus was a first born child and then had brothers and sisters who fathered adynastry that ran a competing church for several centuries
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:21 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:"Words mean whatever I say they mean, that's all."

Dave and Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty would understand each other.

well Dobson was a mathemetician-he might have understood that if one stands outside time and creates time-all other points on the time line are arbitrary
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:40 pm

And he might have known what proof is, too?

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:44 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:"Words mean whatever I say they mean, that's all."

Dave and Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty would understand each other.

well Dobson was a mathemetician-he might have understood that if one stands outside time and creates time-all other points on the time line are arbitrary

Yes, well, someone has yet to demonstrate to me how anything can "stand outside time and create time."

Btw, no relation to James Dobson of Focus on the Family, Lewis Carroll was the nom de plume of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by TPaine on Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:45 pm

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The earth is actually 6000 years old and God created creatures that lived before that and left the evidence that they lived, but they never really existed.

Ok, I'll buy that. Of course I also know that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:23 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:"Words mean whatever I say they mean, that's all."

Dave and Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty would understand each other.

well Dobson was a mathemetician-he might have understood that if one stands outside time and creates time-all other points on the time line are arbitrary

Yes, well, someone has yet to demonstrate to me how anything can "stand outside time and create time."

Btw, no relation to James Dobson of Focus on the Family, Lewis Carroll was the nom de plume of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.

yes of course Dodgson
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:27 pm

TPaine wrote:Let me see if I understand this correctly. The earth is actually 6000 years old and God created creatures that lived before that and left the evidence that they lived, but they never really existed.

Ok, I'll buy that. Of course I also know that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

not exactly; 6000 years ago-God created time, history, evolution and all the rest

they really existed-but their whole history was created in instant

6000 years ago there was nothing and an instant later there was a universe with a billion year history
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:04 pm

And your proof for this is? Or is this one of the hypotheses that you have to explain the creation myths in the bible?

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:57 am

Davelaw wrote:
TPaine wrote:Let me see if I understand this correctly. The earth is actually 6000 years old and God created creatures that lived before that and left the evidence that they lived, but they never really existed.

Ok, I'll buy that. Of course I also know that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

not exactly; 6000 years ago-God created time, history, evolution and all the rest

they really existed-but their whole history was created in instant

6000 years ago there was nothing and an instant later there was a universe with a billion year history

This REALLY makes no discernible sense whatsoever except as God's little cosmic joke.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:07 am

DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
TPaine wrote:Let me see if I understand this correctly. The earth is actually 6000 years old and God created creatures that lived before that and left the evidence that they lived, but they never really existed.

Ok, I'll buy that. Of course I also know that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

not exactly; 6000 years ago-God created time, history, evolution and all the rest

they really existed-but their whole history was created in instant

6000 years ago there was nothing and an instant later there was a universe with a billion year history

This REALLY makes no discernible sense whatsoever except as God's little cosmic joke.
It reminds me of the X-Files episode where Scully and Mulder investiaged a supposed frozen alien. It had bones, skin, blood, internal organs, etc. Except it all had been grown and put together in the form of a body. It had never been alive. IOWs, it was fake for that alien never existed.

A past that never existed is still a fake past.

It serves no purpose other than to purposely deceive.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:49 am

The thing is, why does Yahweh need to deceive humans?

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:16 pm

Yes, gilly, . . . . what WOULD be the purpose of "a false past"? Unless, of course, the bible account is absolutely UNtrue on any level, . . . then we have nothing to talk about.
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