Where the Bible makes no sense at all

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:14 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Dave, . . .because it [a made up past] would be an untruth. Something that never happened. And it would be absolutely unnecessary BUT to deceive many people.

how so? It would be just something created in its mature state. When you were a believer, you didn't believe that A & E were created as infants did you?
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:17 pm

gillyflower wrote:"Hi, there, I'm Yahweh and I created the earth 6,000 years ago but I'm going to make humans think that it is much older just to really f*ck with their heads! Isn't that a mahvelous idea, dahling?"

I can see Eddie Murphy playing god here.

Gilly, would kindly stop taking the name of my Diety in vain. Just because you met a Diety who went by the name doese not necessary equate that Diety to the God of the Bible.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:22 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:This story is best understood by looking at Mecca during Haj or any other place where great pilgrimages still occur. The entire Galilee emplied out to go to Jerusalem. That 60 mile path was jam-packed with foot travel. I doubt they made more than ten miles a day.

Huh? A bunch of people observe the traditions of their religion by traveling long distances to visit places they consider sacred during a major religious holy day. What's to understand? And how does understanding that people do this add anything to our comprehension of this account?
.
By understanding how a tweenager could be misplaced in such chaos.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:44 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Dave, . . .because it [a made up past] would be an untruth. Something that never happened. And it would be absolutely unnecessary BUT to deceive many people.

how so? It would be just something created in its mature state. When you were a believer, you didn't believe that A & E were created as infants did you?

Before I continue, let me state that I absolutely do not see the Adam and Eve story as literal.

Okay, . . . to answer your question, . . . it would be an untruth to have "an aftermath" of something which didn't occur. There are quite a few supernova remenants that are WELL beyond 6,000-10,000 light years away. There would be NO reason for any deity to create a false past but to deceive.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:54 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:This story is best understood by looking at Mecca during Haj or any other place where great pilgrimages still occur. The entire Galilee emplied out to go to Jerusalem. That 60 mile path was jam-packed with foot travel. I doubt they made more than ten miles a day.

Huh? A bunch of people observe the traditions of their religion by traveling long distances to visit places they consider sacred during a major religious holy day. What's to understand? And how does understanding that people do this add anything to our comprehension of this account?
.
By understanding how a tweenager could be misplaced in such chaos.

I don't think the problem was a child being "misplaced", Dave. I think it's the cavalier attitude displayed by this errant youth when scolded by his parents. I also mentioned something about the "prophet excuse" you spoke of. Again.... If the parents didn't even have an inkling that this teen aged boy was something extrodinary..... I mean who knows you better than your mother, for crying out loud?! Now if the story had played out that when he came up missing, they, knowing exactly where to find him and why, turned back and went straight away into the room with the elders and found him there with the elders marveling at his wisdom..... now that would have fit, and had been something worthy of an up and coming mangod. Doncha think so yerself?

I won't even begin to approach with a reply to something as totally unbelievable as anyone's god being so deceitful as to create a world 6000 years ago with a time line dating back eons. However, it would fit into the concept of a jealous vengeful god who would punish with eternal torment his own creation for the built in design flaws set up by their creator. A god who lies to his creation (or misleads)? Not one I would willingly follow.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:20 pm

Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:"Hi, there, I'm Yahweh and I created the earth 6,000 years ago but I'm going to make humans think that it is much older just to really f*ck with their heads! Isn't that a mahvelous idea, dahling?"

I can see Eddie Murphy playing god here.

Gilly, would kindly stop taking the name of my Diety in vain. Just because you met a Diety who went by the name doese not necessary equate that Diety to the God of the Bible.

What does it mean to take the name of a deity in vain? From TheFreeDictionary:

to say someone's name when they are not there, usually when you are criticizing them

Let's look at that. Are you saying that Yahweh is not here? I thought he was everywhere, or at least that is what the churches I went to taught. I would think that it is impossible to take Yahweh's name in vain if he is everywhere.

I am not criticizing Yahweh, although he is IMO certainly a big enough god not to be threatened or mind too much. (Though as an aside, personally I think Yahweh has a sense of humor and besides, any All Powerful God though doesn't really need a person to protect him, do you think?) I am criticizing other people's interpretations of the Christian bible, which is an entirely different thing. I think your hypothesis that Yahweh created the world 6,000 years ago and then fabricated evidence to fool humans is not a good one.

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:40 pm

DeavonReye wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Dave, . . .because it [a made up past] would be an untruth. Something that never happened. And it would be absolutely unnecessary BUT to deceive many people.

how so? It would be just something created in its mature state. When you were a believer, you didn't believe that A & E were created as infants did you?

Before I continue, let me state that I absolutely do not see the Adam and Eve story as literal.

Okay, . . . to answer your question, . . . it would be an untruth to have "an aftermath" of something which didn't occur. There are quite a few supernova remenants that are WELL beyond 6,000-10,000 light years away. There would be NO reason for any deity to create a false past but to deceive.

I agree. It also voids out free will. For if god 'created' the past, it probably 'created' the future as well. The only purpose of humanity is to amuse god.

We're nothing more than a movie playing in the dvd player; no past, no future, no choices.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:55 pm

jumbojava, . . . if you take the account of Job, . . . it seems that humanity IS a source of "amusement". And they have nothing to say about their part in it, either.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:44 am

Davelaw wrote:
By understanding how a tweenager could be misplaced in such chaos.

john5180 wrote:I don't think the problem was a child being "misplaced", Dave. I think it's the cavalier attitude displayed by this errant youth when scolded by his parents.

Not only that but the fact that Mary and Joseph seemingly had no idea where Jesus might be. Remember that it took them a day's travel and then THREE days to find this kid. That makes no sense whatsoever when the point of this story for Christians ordinarily is how wondrous it was that this 12-year-old man-god was found teaching the temple priests.

Again.... If the parents didn't even have an inkling that this teen aged boy was something extrodinary..... I mean who knows you better than your mother, for crying out loud?! Now if the story had played out that when he came up missing, they, knowing exactly where to find him and why, turned back and went straight away into the room with the elders and found him there with the elders marveling at his wisdom..... now that would have fit, and had been something worthy of an up and coming mangod.

Precisely, John. That would make sense, even more so if among the first words out of Jesus's mouth were some indicating an awareness of how thoughtlessly he'd behaved in causing such worry and extra travel for his parents.

Let's put this in contemporary terms. You and a group of family and friends (say 25-30 people altogether) decide to go to New York City at Thanksgiving, primarily to see the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

Once the parade had gone past your viewing point, you and spouse would grab a cab or head for the subway to return to your hotel assuming that your teenaged kids were with others in the group.

Somehow, I don't see this happening any more than I believe that Mary and Joseph would have set off for home "supposing" that Jesus was with family or friends elsewhere in the group.

This sounds to me like a story written by someone who'd never been responsible for the welfare of children.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:27 am

DeavonReye wrote:jumbojava, . . . if you take the account of Job, . . . it seems that humanity IS a source of "amusement". And they have nothing to say about their part in it, either.

We're just another brick in the wall..............
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:07 pm

Davelaw wrote:
By understanding how a tweenager could be misplaced in such chaos.

I don't think the problem was a child being "misplaced", Dave. I think it's the cavalier attitude displayed by this errant youth when scolded by his parents.

DotNotInOz wrote:Not only that but the fact that Mary and Joseph seemingly had no idea where Jesus might be. Remember that it took them a day's travel and then THREE days to find this kid. That makes no sense whatsoever when the point of this story for Christians ordinarily is how wondrous it was that this 12-year-old man-god was found teaching the temple priests.

Again.... If the parents didn't even have an inkling that this teen aged boy was something extraordinary..... I mean who knows you better than your mother, for crying out loud?! Now if the story had played out that when he came up missing, they, knowing exactly where to find him and why, turned back and went straight away into the room with the elders and found him there with the elders marveling at his wisdom..... now that would have fit, and had been something worthy of an up and coming mangod.

DotNotInOz wrote:Precisely, John. That would make sense, even more so if among the first words out of Jesus's mouth were some indicating an awareness of how thoughtlessly he'd behaved in causing such worry and extra travel for his parents.

That's pretty much what I was trying to put across. You did a better job of it than I did, but we agree.


DotNotInOz wrote:Let's put this in contemporary terms. You and a group of family and friends (say 25-30 people altogether) decide to go to New York City at Thanksgiving, primarily to see the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

Once the parade had gone past your viewing point, you and spouse would grab a cab or head for the subway to return to your hotel assuming that your teenaged kids were with others in the group.

Somehow, I don't see this happening any more than I believe that Mary and Joseph would have set off for home "supposing" that Jesus was with family or friends elsewhere in the group.

This sounds to me like a story written by someone who'd never been responsible for the welfare of children.

In this case, Dot contemporary situations can't apply. In the best case scenario, when a child turns up missing today, the child is a runaway, and manages to escape molestation, or even worse murdered. Worst case? The child does not escape the possibilities I mentioned.

I've helped to raise 5 kids, and can assure you when one turned up not being where he was supposed to be, even with their mother and I being aware of where, or who they were supposed to be with, the alarm went out and it sure as hell didn't take a day to be aware of it. Most parents are no different than me or my wife in that regard. In fact, no reasonable adult that I know is that liberal when charged with the care of a minor.

I do realize that times change, and dangers change as well. But even in biblical times there were dangers; if not from crazy pedophiles in the community, a 60 mile trip through a desert had to be full of natural dangers; enough so that people traveled in caravans rather than risking the trip alone. I refuse to believe for even a nano-second that any parent, filled with the knowledge of the divinity of their son or not would be that unaware of the where a bouts of one of their children. The whole concept is ridiculous to me.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:30 pm

john5180 wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:Let's put this in contemporary terms. You and a group of family and friends (say 25-30 people altogether) decide to go to New York City at Thanksgiving, primarily to see the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

Once the parade had gone past your viewing point, you and spouse would grab a cab or head for the subway to return to your hotel assuming that your teenaged kids were with others in the group.

Somehow, I don't see this happening any more than I believe that Mary and Joseph would have set off for home "supposing" that Jesus was with family or friends elsewhere in the group.

This sounds to me like a story written by someone who'd never been responsible for the welfare of children.

In this case, Dot contemporary situations can't apply. In the best case scenario, when a child turns up missing today, the child is a runaway, and manages to escape molestation, or even worse murdered. Worst case? The child does not escape the possibilities I mentioned.

Probably. However, I was intending this example to focus upon how parents realistically behave. You emphasized my point with the following:

I've helped to raise 5 kids, and can assure you when one turned up not being where he was supposed to be, even with their mother and I being aware of where, or who they were supposed to be with, the alarm went out and it sure as hell didn't take a day to be aware of it. Most parents are no different than me or my wife in that regard. In fact, no reasonable adult that I know is that liberal when charged with the care of a minor.

I do realize that times change, and dangers change as well. But even in biblical times there were dangers; if not from crazy pedophiles in the community, a 60 mile trip through a desert had to be full of natural dangers; enough so that people traveled in caravans rather than risking the trip alone. I refuse to believe for even a nano-second that any parent, filled with the knowledge of the divinity of their son or not would be that unaware of the where a bouts of one of their children. The whole concept is ridiculous to me.
[emphasis added]

Turning the compliment back atcha, John. You said it from a parent's perspective far better than I did.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:35 pm

Thank you, Dot. You're too kind.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:39 pm

john5180 wrote:

I do realize that times change, and dangers change as well. But even in biblical times there were dangers; if not from crazy pedophiles in the community, a 60 mile trip through a desert had to be full of natural dangers; enough so that people traveled in caravans rather than risking the trip alone. I refuse to believe for even a nano-second that any parent, filled with the knowledge of the divinity of their son or not would be that unaware of the where a bouts of one of their children. The whole concept is ridiculous to me.
All your points were good but this one stands out for my comment.

Yes times have changed, but isn't this the same Jesus that was endanger of being killed as a baby by, Herod? wasn't it, now I am not a biblical scholar, but since this supposed man/god was so important you would think everyone would be more cautious, And although all the adults had terrible memories, (wasn't this the child that an Angel supposedly announced to both Mary and Joseph they were birthing the "son of god"??)

The stories are clearly written by different people, and it is obvious that these different people did not even read each others writings.

If any of this had happened and this man(child)god wanted to speak with the Temple priests, wouldn't it have been honourable and decent to let his (Earthly) parents know he desired to do so? Not just sneak off and worry these obviously handicapped people? (Handicapped as in bad memories, not remembering their boy was supposed to be a god).

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:28 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:
john5180 wrote:

I do realize that times change, and dangers change as well. But even in biblical times there were dangers; if not from crazy pedophiles in the community, a 60 mile trip through a desert had to be full of natural dangers; enough so that people traveled in caravans rather than risking the trip alone. I refuse to believe for even a nano-second that any parent, filled with the knowledge of the divinity of their son or not would be that unaware of the where a bouts of one of their children. The whole concept is ridiculous to me.
All your points were good but this one stands out for my comment.

Yes times have changed, but isn't this the same Jesus that was endanger of being killed as a baby by, Herod? wasn't it, now I am not a biblical scholar, but since this supposed man/god was so important you would think everyone would be more cautious, And although all the adults had terrible memories, (wasn't this the child that an Angel supposedly announced to both Mary and Joseph they were birthing the "son of god"??)

The stories are clearly written by different people, and it is obvious that these different people did not even read each others writings.

If any of this had happened and this man(child)god wanted to speak with the Temple priests, wouldn't it have been honourable and decent to let his (Earthly) parents know he desired to do so? Not just sneak off and worry these obviously handicapped people? (Handicapped as in bad memories, not remembering their boy was supposed to be a god).

Very good points.....
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:50 pm

MaineCaptain wrote: Yes times have changed, but isn't this the same Jesus that was endanger of being killed as a baby by, Herod? wasn't it, now I am not a biblical scholar, but since this supposed man/god was so important you would think everyone would be more cautious, And although all the adults had terrible memories, (wasn't this the child that an Angel supposedly announced to both Mary and Joseph they were birthing the "son of god"??)

No kidding! I didn't even think about the so-called slaughter of the innocents that caused the angel to warn Mary and Joseph to take another route home and to do so quickly right after Jesus's birth.

And I remember reading in Robert Price's book that the historical record shows that even if the teaching in the temple occurred after Herod's death, Herod's son was even more bloodthirsty about consolidating his power than his father had been. Jesus might easily have been in more danger than he was as a baby.

If any of this had happened and this man(child)god wanted to speak with the Temple priests, wouldn't it have been honourable and decent to let his (Earthly) parents know he desired to do so? Not just sneak off and worry these obviously handicapped people? (Handicapped as in bad memories, not remembering their boy was supposed to be a god).

Again, no kidding!
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:10 pm

thank you guys, I hope I did not sound rude.
This is a story my Mum and I used to discuss, so it is one I have a bigger opinion of. so I thought I would ad my two cents Smile

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:14 am

MaineCaptain wrote:thank you guys, I hope I did not sound rude.
This is a story my Mum and I used to discuss, so it is one I have a bigger opinion of. so I thought I would ad my two cents Smile

Well, I dunno about the two cents part, Maine. Those points you brought up are worth a whole lot more than that. And like Dot.... I had never considered those aspects either.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by MaineCaptain on Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:02 pm

john5180 wrote:
MaineCaptain wrote:thank you guys, I hope I did not sound rude.
This is a story my Mum and I used to discuss, so it is one I have a bigger opinion of. so I thought I would ad my two cents Smile

Well, I dunno about the two cents part, Maine. Those points you brought up are worth a whole lot more than that. And like Dot.... I had never considered those aspects either.
Thank you John, you are a sweetie Smile

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:02 am

Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:"Hi, there, I'm Yahweh and I created the earth 6,000 years ago but I'm going to make humans think that it is much older just to really f*ck with their heads! Isn't that a mahvelous idea, dahling?"

I can see Eddie Murphy playing god here.

Gilly, would kindly stop taking the name of my Diety in vain. Just because you met a Diety who went by the name doese not necessary equate that Diety to the God of the Bible.

Dave, you seem a little touchy about Gilly taking your deity's name "in vain". And as she pointed out, the manner she used the name wasn't actually in vain..... and certainly not as reprehensible as Christians have heaped upon deities outside of Christianity. Gilly does not insist he is false, or nonexistent, or even lesser than other deities. Furthermore, the idea that a deity who would deceive his creation in the manner you've described opens the door to a humorous, even sarcastic response. If what you've suggested is true of Yahweh, your Yahweh of the bible, then he deserves no respect. If this is something you simply thought up by way of an explanation of some of the nonsensical beliefs of your religion, then he doesn't need any more assistance from you if "vain taking" is what you're trying to avoid. So perhaps you should seek your own wise council and avoid making your god subject to humorous responses.

One other thought while I'm at it, Dave..... If your god's shoulders are so narrow that it can't bear the weight of someone questioning any one of his actions, then how omnipotent can he be if he needs one of his creation to run defense for him? Just wondering.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:57 am

:::::: waves the "absolutely right on" flag for John's reply above :::::

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to wrap my head around Dave's point that creating a historical backlog "in a mature state" isn't deceptive.

If all of creation came into being at the point of Adam and Eve's advent 6000 years ago, then the backlog absolutely is deceptive since there was nothing there previously to produce those artifacts. Positing that all the dinosaur-era fossils we find were placed 6000 years ago would mean that no such creatures existed in any form but their fossilized remains. People are aware that skeletal remains signify a body once alive since we've direct experience of that occurrence.

Thus, a deity who lays down fossil skeletons as their "mature state" so that people will think them to be creatures who lived and died can scarcely be said to have done anything but deceive.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:07 am

DotNotInOz wrote::::::: waves the "absolutely right on" flag for John's reply above :::::

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to wrap my head around Dave's point that creating a historical backlog "in a mature state" isn't deceptive.

If all of creation came into being at the point of Adam and Eve's advent 6000 years ago, then the backlog absolutely is deceptive since there was nothing there previously to produce those artifacts. Positing that all the dinosaur-era fossils we find were placed 6000 years ago would mean that no such creatures existed in any form but their fossilized remains. People are aware that skeletal remains signify a body once alive since we've direct experience of that occurrence.

Thus, a deity who lays down fossil skeletons as their "mature state" so that people will think them to be creatures who lived and died can scarcely be said to have done anything but deceive.
****also waves the 'absolutely right on' flag****
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 am

It's simple for me: If Christianity wants non-Christian faiths to respect it then Christianity in return should respect ALL non-Christian faiths.

Christianity teaching that all non-Christian faiths are of the devil is NOT respect in any form of the word.

If Christianity cannot respect ALL other faiths then it shouldnt bitch about getting no respect.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:17 pm

jumbojava wrote:It's simple for me: If Christianity wants non-Christian faiths to respect it then Christianity in return should respect ALL non-Christian faiths.

Christianity teaching that all non-Christian faiths are of the devil is NOT respect in any form of the word.

If Christianity cannot respect ALL other faiths then it shouldnt bitch about getting no respect.

Yeah, well, I ain't holdin' my breath waiting for this to happen, are you?

Islam sails that same boat. So does Judaism although to a lesser degree typically (unless you ask the Orthodox or Conservatives what they think of "Messianic" Jews [quotes indicating sarcasm] or to some extent Reform.)
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:54 pm

Yes, java, . . . . I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you, either. The only way they [christians] can be is that ANY other religion, that is not "Jesus as savior", is in league with "Satan deception", ONLY. Because of what they are, . . . they CANNOT be any other way. There IS nothing else than that YOU, jumbojava, are deceived by Satan, so they MUST tell you that you "are on the wrong path that leads to destruction".

The problem is that they refuse to give their own religion a TRUE look, . . . to see all the errors and all the things that make absolutely no sense at all. However, I think things are changing. A lot of information has recently become more available to people and I believe that this fact will eventually be the doom of the religion. . . . . . . . .and if not "doom of it", . . . a serious damaging.
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