Where the Bible makes no sense at all

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:07 pm

Here is the part from Deuteronomy, Chapter 12:

2 Ye shall surely destroy all the places, wherein the nations that ye are to dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every leafy tree. 3 And ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods; and ye shall destroy their name out of that place. 4 Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0512.htm#3

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:15 pm

Maybe more of it is needed? Next verses:

5 But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put His name there, even unto His habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come; 6 and thither ye shall bring your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill-offerings, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock; 7 and there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.

The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about what kind of burnt offerings the gods wants and I guarantee that the Christians aren't doing that any more.

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:32 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Is it a sacred number in Judaism? Or is it just further evidence that the answer to the question of Life, the Universe and Everything is 42?

I got the answer to your question from http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/12/42-its-not-gods-favorite-number.html.
42: It's not God's favorite number (Although it is The Answer to The Ultimate Question Of Life, the Universe and Everything.)
Now.. for why:

gillyflower wrote:The number 42 might just have been one of those numbers that isn't magical, it is just the fall back number for "a lot of things" in that culture.

Not magical, Gilly, but important. I'll show you why in just a second.











(I just love suspense...... don't you?) Smile











Davelaw wrote:And yes, 6 and 7 and all there multiples are sacred numbers in scripture including 6 by 7; but IMO thats not whats going on here-your mileage may vary

Well, according to my sourceā€¦.. the same one I referenced to Gilly, it does.

So much action packed into two short verses!
But what's really important here is the moral of the story. What is God trying to teach us here?
Well some things are obvious.
1. Don't make fun of religious leaders (or God might kill you in a particularly gruesome way).
2. Children shouldn't make fun of bald men.
3. God doesn't much like the number 42.

Okay, maybe the third one isn't so obvious. But doesn't it seem strange to have 42 little boys running out of the city screaming "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" all at once? And then to have all 42 of them ripped apart by bears? Two or three, even a half dozen maybe, but not 42.
So maybe the number of boys was inflated a bit. But, still, why make it 42?
Because, you see, God really likes seven (that's why he has seven spirits) and he hates six (666 and all that). So since 7 is perfect and six is evil, 7 times 6 is perfectly evil.
So when the story of Elisha and the bears was made up (well, you didn't really believe it, did you?), 42 was selected for the number of boys. It showed how bad those boys must have been and how much they deserved being torn up by bears.


And then he goes on to demonstrate the other "42's" in the bible that aren't so nice.

Dot was right on track when she talked about the significance numbers had within Judaism. And it carried over into Christianity. Numerology had it's place in the early Christian movement. Every name had it's numerical equivalent. Cesar Nero's numeric equivalent is the number 666. So there is a biblical significance to the number 42, and why it was used in verses where bad things happen.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:40 pm

DeavonReye wrote:I don't get it. . . . . . If it isn't specifically spelled out, . . . then why in the freakin world do people make a fuss over it? It makes no sense at all.

Weeelll, that's another curious thing about Judaism.

Outside of the specific laws in scripture, much of what is done derives from age-old tradition and custom. Other things are based upon the commentaries on Torah, often by long-ago rabbis some of whom have the stature of demi-gods, IMO. And then, there are the opinions of one's own rabbi.

Tradition in particular often carries nearly the same weight as scriptural laws. Remember the song from Fiddler On the Roof? They mean it.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:14 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I think that Yahweh was a kick ass warrior god that one had best respect, in this era.

Let me say it one last time; it really bothers me when you use a derivation of the specific name Holy Name of my Diety (one we are forbidden to speak outloud); could you please refrain?

For me it is a clarification thing. Which god are we talking about? If you have an alternative, I would be happy to hear it, but "God" is not a good option, and "Christian God" doesn't take into account the other Abrahamic faiths, and I have flat out been told that Judeo-Christian is an offensive term to a large number of Jews, Christians and Muslims. So, what would you suggest? After all, it is his name.

And I don't think that such strictures apply to people who don't venerate whatever your preferred deity/ies may be. Granted, one would expect a reasonable degree of respectful reference such as not referring to someone else's deity in a clearly derogatory manner. But I think that's all that ought to be expected.

This is a good example of how much more particular some Christians are, IMO. Jews at least cut slack for non-Jews and don't expect them to abide by such scruples.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:58 pm

gillyflower wrote:The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about what kind of burnt offerings the gods wants and I guarantee that the Christians aren't doing that any more.

Neither are the Jews since they believe the designated place for offering burnt sacrifices to the Lord was the Temple destroyed in 70 C.E., I think it was.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:16 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Again, . . . . why is this an issue, . . . not spelling out your god's name? I don't understand the problem.

To some extent, similar strictures exist in occult practices.

It all goes back to the belief that one's name is an integral part of oneself, even to evoking the essential self when the name is called. Thus, some people still have a private religious name never to be used outside that context and a public name.

There are people still who honestly believe that saying a name of power can call up the being whose name it is, probably to your great detriment. Hence, the belief that you'd better not so much as attempt to pronounce YHVH and why some won't even write the four letters together or use a derivative such as Yahweh.

Yeah, there's a whole lot of ancient religious magick lingering in such prohibitions, akin to the Native American belief that a photograph captures the person's soul.

There's a quite interesting book entitled Ancient Christian Magick, I think. Apparently, I donated it when we moved, and I had to cull out all but the absolute essentials. Rats! Much of what's in there was common practice among various early Christian sects, and virtually all of it would cause heart failure for most of today's Christians. We're talking stuff like love spells and curses, to give you an idea of what it includes.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by john5180 on Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:07 am

There's another good book on the subject, if you're really that interested called The 72 Names of God by Yemuda Berg. It can give you some of the Jewish history of them.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:31 am

I must be one of the most prosaic witches possible because I never got the whole concept of names having power over an individual, god or demon. I mean, I understand the concept but it just never made a lot of sense to me which is why ceremonial magic never drew me perhaps. The essence of a being isn't the name, it is the will in my world view, the energy signature. Then again, my gods don't seem to worry too much about what they are called, and I know them by their energy signature, the energy feel of them, for want of a better word. Maybe the spiritual signature? Learning about what other's believe helps me learn more about what I believe, and I thank you.

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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:44 am

Sounds like you're more of what I call a practical witch, Gilly, who works on instinct more than from ritual specifications.

I've gotta admit that I often skip a lot of steps in rituals if I've discovered I can take shortcuts safely. As Larry the Cable Guy says, "Git 'r done." It's the end result that counts, not how you get there necessarily.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:19 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:Sounds like you're more of what I call a practical witch, Gilly, who works on instinct more than from ritual specifications.

I've gotta admit that I often skip a lot of steps in rituals if I've discovered I can take shortcuts safely. As Larry the Cable Guy says, "Git 'r done." It's the end result that counts, not how you get there necessarily.

Dot, you have never struck me as an "ends justifies the means" type person; care to elaborate? or does this apply to pratical magic?
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:44 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Again, . . . . why is this an issue, . . . not spelling out your god's name? I don't understand the problem.

To some extent, similar strictures exist in occult practices.

It all goes back to the belief that one's name is an integral part of oneself, even to evoking the essential self when the name is called. Thus, some people still have a private religious name never to be used outside that context and a public name.

There are people still who honestly believe that saying a name of power can call up the being whose name it is, probably to your great detriment. Hence, the belief that you'd better not so much as attempt to pronounce YHVH and why some won't even write the four letters together or use a derivative such as Yahweh.

Yeah, there's a whole lot of ancient religious magick lingering in such prohibitions, akin to the Native American belief that a photograph captures the person's soul.

There's a quite interesting book entitled Ancient Christian Magick, I think. Apparently, I donated it when we moved, and I had to cull out all but the absolute essentials. Rats! Much of what's in there was common practice among various early Christian sects, and virtually all of it would cause heart failure for most of today's Christians. We're talking stuff like love spells and curses, to give you an idea of what it includes.

Sounds like a fascinating book.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:50 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:Sounds like you're more of what I call a practical witch, Gilly, who works on instinct more than from ritual specifications.

I've gotta admit that I often skip a lot of steps in rituals if I've discovered I can take shortcuts safely. As Larry the Cable Guy says, "Git 'r done." It's the end result that counts, not how you get there necessarily.

Dot, you have never struck me as an "ends justifies the means" type person; care to elaborate? or does this apply to pratical magic?

Sure thing, Dave, and yes, I agree that I'm not an "end justifies the means" sort in reference to most things, my religious workings paramount among such.

To clarify, what I meant was simply omitting steps that I've found aren't entirely necessary in order to achieve the intent of a ritual. The Reader's Digest form of the ritual, to put it a bit waggishly. Now, mind you, I would decidedly NOT do this with a ritual I'm unfamiliar with, and there are some rituals where I would never think of skipping steps.

We're talking about a distinction rather akin to that a Christian might have of customarily saying an elaborate grace before eating when a far simpler one serves the purpose equally well. My maternal grandfather at an ordinary Sunday dinner would say merely, "May this food we are about to eat nourish our bodies and us to thy service, Lord, in Jesus's name. Amen." At Thanksgiving, Christmas or Easter, he added a bunch of details about gratitude for God's bounty, expressed appreciation for the love shown by my grandmother and aunts who'd so skillfully fixed many yummy things for us to eat, mentioned by name relatives or friends joining us for the meal who weren't ordinarily present, asked for good or better health for everyone, and so forth.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:25 pm

Incidentally, I do very little usually termed practical magick such as blessing one's home or cleansing it by means of a ritual involving props like smudge sticks, candles, salt, water and the like. That sort of thing is more hubby's department, but I've never seen him use objects.

When I'm talking ritual, I mean something more akin to a baptism ritual or a communion one in a Christian church except that I generally work entirely without material objects.
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Re: Where the Bible makes no sense at all

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:35 pm

In my religion, there are people who just love all the religious trappings - robes, fancy wands, headdresses, chalices, and there is not a thing wrong with that, in my opinion. Just like there are people who like to dress up and throw fancy parties, there are people who like pomp and circumstance in their religious ceremonies. I tried that and then realized that simple suits me better.

In my tradition, we say whatever works. The whole point of ritual IMO is putting one in touch with the gods and a person has to discover how best that happens. As for magic working, for me simple works best, too.

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