What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:51 pm

DeavonReye wrote:These are things that I was never given information on until I searched out such things, reading and finding out the truth. . . . when that happens, it demystifies the whole christian experience I had all my life. That and when others point out the various places in the Old Testament where god openly stated that he never wanted a sacrifice, and people were "forgiven" without one, . . . so this idea OF a "sacrifice" is a human notion, . . . . probably another offshoot from some other religion of the day.

I'm no longer convinced that this god doesn't require a sacrifice. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, but it was a test. When Abraham passed this test, the biblegod changed the sacrifice from the son to a ram. Blood sacrifices were common even during the era of Jesus. The ultimate sacrifice was Jesus himself!

Sacrifices and offerings have been a common thread among different religions of the world. To me a god wanting a sacrifice isn't so extreme to show honor. In today's Christianity, the method of sacrifice has turned from blood letting to money for the most part, but Jesus is still ceremonially sacrificed to this day. Bread representing the body, and wine (or grape juice) for his blood. The tithing is still 10% of your income... this only varies from 10% of your crops or the best among your herd. And when looked at as a sacrifice, that 10% of any or all could make the difference of food and shelter for someone. Even in my belief, we offer a sacrifice of some sort.... A drink, that can range from wine to milk, or some food offering from a garden.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:15 pm

The Old Testament clearly says that god doesn't require sacrifice, . . . but "a broken spirit and a contrite heart".

As for "him testing Abraham", . . . it really wasn't a test at all. It is a story where a god asks a human to do a highly unethical thing, . . . and just before he does it, he steps in to stop it, because he knew Abraham would do what he asked, . . .but no until that time. "NOW I KNOW that you will not withhold your son, your only son, from ME."

Having said that, I see this story as a complete fabrication and it is doubtful that this ever happened.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:55 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Having said that, I see this story as a complete fabrication and it is doubtful that this ever happened.

And herein lies the crux of the problem for you as yet, Deavon, if you'll forgive an unsolicited opinion.

What you've been saying here and elsewhere reminds me of myself when I determined that I simply could not believe this virgin birth and resurrection stuff had actually happened. People had assured me all my life that the accounts of Jesus were absolutely and literally true. I felt immensely betrayed and angry for some time once I realized that these stories were an affront to the ability to reason that I'd also been told was given by God.

Once I got past being pissed that I'd been lied to all those years, I began to consider the value of these stories as myths.

And then, I happened onto an analysis--I no longer recall where--that said that many of the biblical accounts were quite likely written to explain things that people didn't understand such as why childbirth is so painful. These were people who had some pretty primitive ideas about how a supernatural being would behave, but then, they didn't have the benefit of living post-Freud. Laughing They certainly had very little idea about how nature or even their own bodies functioned.

God does cruel things to test his followers such as asking Abraham to sacrifice his son...probably something that the writer had heard of or experienced a human chieftain doing to impress people with the fact that he could. And then God steps in to give Abraham the reprieve...which is preposterous when this is GOD who knew from the start that Abraham was loyal and obedient. But consider the suspense of this story...even today, we find ourselves marveling at Abraham's devotion to God that he would even THINK of doing this, much less that he was actually about to do it when God put a stop to it. Even though we know the outcome, if we have a devout mindset, we marvel at Abraham's fidelity, confidence in God and obedience. And THAT'S the point.

These are "stories with a moral," written to demonstrate some aspect of human relationships with God that the writer felt was important.

In that sense, they have value, mostly historical value, IMO, when we think about how very much human knowledge has evolved since these accounts were recorded. For instance, we know that Joshua couldn't have stopped the sun in the sky so he could finish the battle... But having a story about a hero so mighty that he could do that probably uplifted people then as much as stories of superheroes righting wrongs by spectacular means does for us.

Digging into the various bible stories for what their point seems to be may help you become more dispassionate about them. It did me.

Just a thought or two for your consideration.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:01 pm

DeavonReye wrote:The Old Testament clearly says that god doesn't require sacrifice, . . . but "a broken spirit and a contrite heart".

I found this piece..... Old Testament Sacrifice: Magic or Sacrament? by Dennis Bratcher which suggests otherwise. You can read the entire piece at http://www.cresourcei.org/sacrifice.html


Here is the real significance of Old Testament sacrifice. Israelites realized that in a liturgical act of worship, the offering of the sacrifice acknowledges that were it not for the grace of God, it is the worshipper who would die! Yet, it is also a symbol of the grace and mercy of God, the recognition that God has chosen to accept less than the life of the worshipper, less than absolute retributive justice. There is no magic here. There is a sacrament that testifies to the nature of Israel’s God.

The clearest illustration of this understanding of sacrifice is found in the rituals associated with the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16. This day was observed after the New Year celebration in the Fall to confess the people’s sins of the past year. After the proper preparations, a bull was sacrificed and its blood sprinkled before the mercy seat, the symbolic throne of God in the Temple. This symbolized the cleansing or covering of the pollution caused by the sins of the people.

Then two goats were chosen to represent the people’s sins. One of the goats was sacrificed and its blood also symbolically sprinkled. This graphically illustrated the seriousness of sin. Since the Israelites believed that "the life is in the blood" (Lev 17:11), the shedding of blood represented the loss of life itself, the removal of the disruption caused by sin. The second goat became the "scapegoat." The priest would first place his hands on the goat’s head while confessing the sins of the people. Then the goat was driven into the desert as a symbol of the removal of sin, the removal of the disorder and alienation caused by sin and the restoration of God’s order, God’s peace (Heb: shalom) in the world. The rest of the sacrifices would then be burned on the altar as an offering to God.

Besides this annual atonement, sacrifices could be made periodically for various sins committed by individuals or the community as a whole. While the specific rituals varied, sacrifice was the central feature, usually the sacrifice of an animal. Again, the primary function of the sacrifice was to acknowledge in an act of worship the seriousness of the offense and the disruption it would inevitably introduce into the community. The liturgy provided the structure and the occasion in which public confession could be made to the community and to God. The sacrifice provided a graphic symbol of the removal of the disruption or pollution that unfaithfulness to God had introduced. That removal served to affirm the continued relationship between the worshipper and his/her community and God.

However, if a person could not afford an animal, there were provisions made for substitution of a grain offering (Lev. 5:11-13). This suggests that it was not just the killing of an animal and the shedding of blood that was important, but the act of worship itself. This casts doubt on a commonly accepted idea that God rejected Cain’s offering because it was not a blood sacrifice (Gen 4:5). Either a grain or blood sacrifice symbolized the forfeiture of life itself as an atonement (cleansing, covering) for the violation (Lev. 1:4-13; Num. 15:22-26).


DeavonReye wrote:As for "him testing Abraham", . . . it really wasn't a test at all. It is a story where a god asks a human to do a highly unethical thing, . . . and just before he does it, he steps in to stop it, because he knew Abraham would do what he asked, . . .but no until that time. "NOW I KNOW that you will not withhold your son, your only son, from ME."

Having said that, I see this story as a complete fabrication and it is doubtful that this ever happened.

Choosing to accept the story as real or a fabrication is really immaterial, Deavon. The fact is that it was still an accepted act and was done in Jesus' time. And ceremoniously still in practice today with the sacraments of the church.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:12 pm

DeavonReye wrote:The Old Testament clearly says that god doesn't require sacrifice, . . . but "a broken spirit and a contrite heart".

And isn't that realization a form of sacrifice?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:10 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:The Old Testament clearly says that god doesn't require sacrifice, . . . but "a broken spirit and a contrite heart".

And isn't that realization a form of sacrifice?

In some ways it could be.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:59 pm

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God,
thou wilt not despise. Psalm 51:17

Is what you mean in your quote: The Old Testament clearly says that god doesn't require sacrifice, . . . but "a broken spirit and a contrite heart".? Well, it's a good start but look at the following verses: Psalm 51:18 and 19 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt
offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine
altar.


As it appears, that the sacrifice of a broken spirit and contrite heart is only a part of the ingredients. And burnt offerings.... blood sacrifice has to follow.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:25 pm

So glad I'm not a part of that religion anymore.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:33 pm

I had problems with all of the contradictions, hairpin twists and turns myself, Deavon.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:05 pm

john5180 wrote:As it appears, that the sacrifice of a broken spirit and contrite heart is only a part of the ingredients. And burnt offerings.... blood sacrifice has to follow.
I never understood why the biblegod was so fascinated with and demanded blood....

DeavonReye wrote:So glad I'm not a part of that religion anymore.
I'm glad I was never part of that religion....
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:23 pm

john5180 wrote:As it appears, that the sacrifice of a broken spirit and contrite heart is only a part of the ingredients. And burnt offerings.... blood sacrifice has to follow.

jumbojava wrote:[I never understood why the biblegod was so fascinated with and demanded blood....

It wasn't only the biblegod with this particular fascination, Jj. Trace the practices of any religion you want, and you will see the same fascination. It was true for the early Jews, Canaanite religions (worshipers of Baal ect.) and even true of the Aztec and Inca cultures. No religion has been immune to a god(s) with such requirements. Christians try to distance themselves from this practice, when in fact, they (so far as I know) are the only ones who still practice it... (outside of devil worshipers), even if only symbolically. Part of the sacrament is the eating of the body of Christ (the bread host) and drinking his blood (wine or grape juice).
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:43 pm

john5180 wrote:I had problems with all of the contradictions, hairpin twists and turns myself, Deavon.

There seems to be contradictions within those verses in Psalms 51:16-19

"16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. 18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper; build up the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar.

Regardless, . . . whenever I see something about "god delighting in burnt offerings of sacrificed animals, . . . I think of the YouTube-er, "nonstampcollector" and his cartoon of god [as someone kills a bull in front of him] and he says, "Oh thank you, so kind of you!" . . . then when the bull is set on fire, . . . "SO PLEASING!!"

He does some very funny and thought provoking videos.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:51 am

DeavonReye wrote:The Old Testament clearly says that god doesn't require sacrifice, . . . but "a broken spirit and a contrite heart".

As for "him testing Abraham", . . . it really wasn't a test at all. It is a story where a god asks a human to do a highly unethical thing, . . . and just before he does it, he steps in to stop it, because he knew Abraham would do what he asked, . . .but no until that time. "NOW I KNOW that you will not withhold your son, your only son, from ME."

Having said that, I see this story as a complete fabrication and it is doubtful that this ever happened.


it says that in the Poetry section
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:19 am

DeavonReye wrote:There seems to be contradictions within those verses in Psalms 51:16-19

"16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. 18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper; build up the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar.

I'm uncertain that these are contradictions. For one thing, it would take a more than somewhat incompetent writer to let stand a contradiction that blatant and obvious.The overall tenor of this passage sounds as though it was written after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews believed by then that blood sacrifice could only be done in the Temple by the priests, so God's not delighting in sacrifice as mentioned initially might be an indication that this was written after that point, particularly in view of that subsequent plea for God to "build up the walls of Jerusalem." Then there will be "righteous sacrifices."

Part of the difficulty of understanding the context of a passage is that the Bible is such a jumble of pieces written at various times. While we tend to think that Genesis must be the oldest portion since its subject indicates that, it's actually not. If I recall correctly, I believe that Job for one is among the oldest.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:08 am

DeavonReye wrote:There seems to be contradictions within those verses in Psalms 51:16-19

"16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. 18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper; build up the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar.

DotNotInOz wrote:I'm uncertain that these are contradictions. For one thing, it would take a more than somewhat incompetent writer to let stand a contradiction that blatant and obvious.The overall tenor of this passage sounds as though it was written after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews believed by then that blood sacrifice could only be done in the Temple by the priests, so God's not delighting in sacrifice as mentioned initially might be an indication that this was written after that point, particularly in view of that subsequent plea for God to "build up the walls of Jerusalem." Then there will be "righteous sacrifices."

Part of the difficulty of understanding the context of a passage is that the Bible is such a jumble of pieces written at various times. While we tend to think that Genesis must be the oldest portion since its subject indicates that, it's actually not. If I recall correctly, I believe that Job for one is among the oldest.

You could well be correct. I was under the impression from reading this that it required both aspects; similar to the Day of Atonement principle. There is the day of atonement within the Jewish concept where they ask their god for forgiveness to the sins of the past year, but the day before that, they must ask for atonement from the people they may have transgressed against during that year as well. It's sorta the understanding that they must be forgiven by those people before they can ask their god can forgive them.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by gillyflower on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:09 am

I think that first step may be one a lot of Christians ignore.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:38 am

I see what you're saying dot. Though, I guess we won't know when that particular passage was written, whether the temple was still there, or after its destruction.

It's actually extremely amazing that, since no one can fully know what actually happened, SO many people embrace the religion, . . . with varying levels of piousness, of course.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:57 am

gillyflower wrote:I think that first step may be one a lot of Christians ignore.

I agree, Gilly, which is one thing I admire about Judaism. It's very practical and emphasizes actions that will make life more pleasant for everyone. For instance, at Purim people often make little treat baskets similar to May baskets to take to people's houses. However, unlike May baskets where one usually expects a basket in return, the whole point of Purim is a kind of reverse trick or treat, being generous to others rather than having the expectation of receiving.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:26 pm

Sounds like the Jewish version of christmas.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Oh, no...that would be Hanukkah which is why some of the more strict branches of Orthodoxy don't celebrate it.

My MIL explained once that while most people believe Hanukkah has a mythical basis--the one day's worth of oil miraculously lasting for eight days-- the holiday became popular in the U.S. so that Jewish kids had something to celebrate at Christmastime.

Hubby's family now exchange a single gift per adult but do small gifts on seven nights and a bigger one on the eighth for kids. As hubby puts it, night four was always socks or underwear, so I needn't think I'd gotten cheated having grown up Christian.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:03 pm

DeavonReye wrote:gilly, . . . I see what you're saying about "sin" and "asking god for forgiveness". I'm afraid that my christian upbringing has caused that level of "brainwashing" that I tend to think that anything I do wrong is automatically a source of anger for a deity. I'm sure that isn't the case. That's why I'm searching for what would be "the truth" and not something that some men, millenias ago, dictated that I should "know" about god. It's this input that has hurt me.

I have more to say, but am not sure how to get it out......
I realize this discussion is four pages long and this post was a while ago, but what you said interests me.

I was not raised in that way, (at least not so you'd know it). But In my younger days, I used to feel there were things I was not allowed to do and if I did them and something went wrong it was, because I did the (what ever it was) and was being punished. It was stupid things that followed me into adulthood (Like riding a bicycle.....I know it makes no sense). I guess because of my odd childhood, I felt I was not allowed to do anything at all. Took years to recover from it.

Now I want to do everything and don't know how

But I do understand that feeling. I do not believe dieties get mad at us. Certainly not for "sins" against them. I do think our own gods (those we interact with) become saddened when we harm ourselves or others. I believe that is because they care about us. I do believe in the law of return. You get it back, one way or another.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:12 pm

Maine, . . . don't you wish you could go back and re-live your youth? I do, sometimes.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:17 pm

Funny Deavon. Although I would never want to be a child again. I do think about what I would do if I could go back, (with the knowledge I have now) And live my life over.

There are several things I might be tempted to change. There are definitely things I wish had been very different.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:28 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:Funny Deavon. Although I would never want to be a child again. I do think about what I would do if I could go back, (with the knowledge I have now) And live my life over.

There are several things I might be tempted to change. There are definitely things I wish had been very different.

Same here. I would never put myself through that again, but I wish I could have had some of the knowledge I do now enough to make life different.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:29 pm

I've had those same thoughts as well. . . . . . . and when I do, there's a sort of heaviness as I know my future would have been different, had my youth not been wasted on a silly religion. . . . and I would have also prepared more. . . . but that's for another topic.
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