What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:45 pm

Yes, dot, . . . . the brainwashing is extensive, when you were raised in it. My oldest brother [and his wife] is a self professed witch, and he still has times when that early childhood brainwashing gets in the way. It may be a form of "child abuse", though my parents didn't know any better, . . . as they too were raised in christianity.

But yes, my "happy life" has been hurt by all the christianized notions of "I'm a worm. . . . a sinner. . . . am unrighteous, . . . . deserving of Hell"...... even though I don't believe that way anymore, it still has been hard to overcome that upbringing.

I'm currently waiting for "something to happen". . . . . not sure what, . . . but hoping that the deity who is for me will find a way to make that known to me. I'm not sure how to go about it, completely, so I'm hoping for a little bit of help from him/her. And after being in a thoroughly "MALE authority" religion, all my life, . . . I kinda hope for a "her", to be honest.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:03 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Yes, dot, . . . . the brainwashing is extensive, when you were raised in it. My oldest brother [and his wife] is a self professed witch, and he still has times when that early childhood brainwashing gets in the way. It may be a form of "child abuse", though my parents didn't know any better, . . . as they too were raised in christianity.

But yes, my "happy life" has been hurt by all the christianized notions of "I'm a worm. . . . a sinner. . . . am unrighteous, . . . . deserving of Hell"...... even though I don't believe that way anymore, it still has been hard to overcome that upbringing.

I'm currently waiting for "something to happen". . . . . not sure what, . . . but hoping that the deity who is for me will find a way to make that known to me. I'm not sure how to go about it, completely, so I'm hoping for a little bit of help from him/her. And after being in a thoroughly "MALE authority" religion, all my life, . . . I kinda hope for a "her", to be honest.

(((((huggles)))))
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:04 pm

Yep, I know the feeling, Deavon.

I still wish there were a way formally to withdraw from the Catholic Church. It sucks, IMO, that whether you want to be or not, you're regarded as a Catholic if you were baptized one. What the hell choice did I have when they baptize babies? You have to do something really outrageous to get excommunicated as they figure that one day you may "see the error of your ways" and want to come back into the fold.

Ain't at all likely to happen in my case.

I can definitely understand relatives of mine who worried when they were terminally ill if they'd been good enough to get into heaven. It's very sad that this "I'm unworthy" mindset is instilled to the extent that a dying person agonizes about going to heaven.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:22 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:Yep, I know the feeling, Deavon.

I still wish there were a way formally to withdraw from the Catholic Church. It sucks, IMO, that whether you want to be or not, you're regarded as a Catholic if you were baptized one. What the hell choice did I have when they baptize babies? You have to do something really outrageous to get excommunicated as they figure that one day you may "see the error of your ways" and want to come back into the fold.

Ain't at all likely to happen in my case.
Did they put a spell on you with that dribble of water? Does it have power over you?


I can definitely understand relatives of mine who worried when they were terminally ill if they'd been good enough to get into heaven. It's very sad that this "I'm unworthy" mindset is instilled to the extent that a dying person agonizes about going to heaven.

When one is taught to dread life and fear death then how can living have meaning?

It is all very unhealthy.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:15 pm

jumbojava wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:I still wish there were a way formally to withdraw from the Catholic Church. It sucks, IMO, that whether you want to be or not, you're regarded as a Catholic if you were baptized one.

Did they put a spell on you with that dribble of water? Does it have power over you?

Hardly. I would simply like to be able to remove myself from their membership roster since I want nothing further to do with that church.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:15 pm

Dot - Just go steal a wafer and "kidnap Christ" like that guy did last year. IMO, perfectly harmless, but they'll excommunicate you faster than Tiger Wood's accusations are flying.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:52 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Dot - Just go steal a wafer and "kidnap Christ" like that guy did last year. IMO, perfectly harmless, but they'll excommunicate you faster than Tiger Wood's accusations are flying.

LOL...yeah, that would do it all right.

Naw, I don't think I'm that eager to be excommunicated, thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:19 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
jumbojava wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:I still wish there were a way formally to withdraw from the Catholic Church. It sucks, IMO, that whether you want to be or not, you're regarded as a Catholic if you were baptized one.

Did they put a spell on you with that dribble of water? Does it have power over you?

Hardly. I would simply like to be able to remove myself from their membership roster since I want nothing further to do with that church.

Shout 'Hail Hecate!' in mass and see what happens. Wink
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:25 am

jumbojava wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Well, the christian response would be that "God cannot abide with iniquity", thus "Jesus payed the 'sin price' so that when God looks at us, he sees the 'paid blood of Jesus' covering our iniquity".

Now, people in Heaven could NEVER be as they were on earth and would have to be fundamentaly changed to keep themselves from what is HUMAN. Changed so much, in fact, that they could never be considered who they were when alive. So the whole notion of it is absurd to begin with. Along with that, it is clear that God created within Adam and Eve the will to fail and even the desire, . . . just like everyone. The desire to know things, to promote self, to do what seems okay as long as it doesn't harm any one. Then, the first time Adam and Eve used those GOD given traits, they were punished for it.

So, your question is valid. Why [should God] be all uptight about what we do when we were made this way on purpose, . . .and why not accept people as they are?

*disclaimer - I don't believe in a literal "Adam and Eve", but use them for argument sake.

In gamer terms: Jesus provides the cheats codes; so we can beat the boss without learning all the moves.

So, iow's, god wont have you as is?

yes and no

you come as you are
but the whole theology is about repentance and subsequent transformation
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:54 am

Davelaw wrote:
jumbojava wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Well, the christian response would be that "God cannot abide with iniquity", thus "Jesus payed the 'sin price' so that when God looks at us, he sees the 'paid blood of Jesus' covering our iniquity".

Now, people in Heaven could NEVER be as they were on earth and would have to be fundamentaly changed to keep themselves from what is HUMAN. Changed so much, in fact, that they could never be considered who they were when alive. So the whole notion of it is absurd to begin with. Along with that, it is clear that God created within Adam and Eve the will to fail and even the desire, . . . just like everyone. The desire to know things, to promote self, to do what seems okay as long as it doesn't harm any one. Then, the first time Adam and Eve used those GOD given traits, they were punished for it.

So, your question is valid. Why [should God] be all uptight about what we do when we were made this way on purpose, . . .and why not accept people as they are?

*disclaimer - I don't believe in a literal "Adam and Eve", but use them for argument sake.

In gamer terms: Jesus provides the cheats codes; so we can beat the boss without learning all the moves.

So, iow's, god wont have you as is?

yes and no

you come as you are
Then why all the hubbub of worshiping JC as your 'savior' if its not needed?

but the whole theology is about repentance and subsequent transformation
Repentance from what? Transformation into what?

If I am good enough as is, then why suddenly change the rules?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:21 am

I'll leave it to Dave to answer your questions and explain as his tradition understands them.

For Catholics, "come as you are" means that God welcomes fallible, weak humans willing to undergo the process of repentance and transformation.

And, in Catholicism, you're screwed from the getgo since it's believed that every person is born bearing the sin of Adam and Eve (known as "Original Sin") which is why babies must be baptized as soon as possible.

So, no person is "good enough as is," which makes sense from a denominational perspective or there'd not be anywhere near as much to keep the clergy in business.

In fact, I recall being told by a bitch of a nun once that since you're momentarily made entirely sinless by receiving Communion, if you dropped dead on your way back to the pew, you'd probably go straight to heaven. I asked, "Only probably?" She explained that if you were thinking as you went back to sit down that you really wanted Mass to be over sooner so you could get on with something lots more fun or were thinking about what you were going to eat for Sunday dinner instead of maintaining a prayerful attitude, you were sinning again already. Pretty minor sins, but sins nonetheless.

In short, you really can't escape the belief that people are naturally sinful in most of Christianity unless you're of the ones that think being saved means you've got a "get out of hell free no matter what you do" card.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:23 am

DotNotInOz wrote:I'll leave it to Dave to answer your questions and explain as his tradition understands them.

For Catholics, "come as you are" means that God welcomes fallible, weak humans willing to undergo the process of repentance and transformation.

And, in Catholicism, you're screwed from the getgo since it's believed that every person is born bearing the sin of Adam and Eve (known as "Original Sin") which is why babies must be baptized as soon as possible.

So, no person is "good enough as is," which makes sense from a denominational perspective or there'd not be anywhere near as much to keep the clergy in business.

In fact, I recall being told by a bitch of a nun once that since you're momentarily made entirely sinless by receiving Communion, if you dropped dead on your way back to the pew, you'd probably go straight to heaven. I asked, "Only probably?" She explained that if you were thinking as you went back to sit down that you really wanted Mass to be over sooner so you could get on with something lots more fun or were thinking about what you were going to eat for Sunday dinner instead of maintaining a prayerful attitude, you were sinning again already. Pretty minor sins, but sins nonetheless.

In short, you really can't escape the belief that people are naturally sinful in most of Christianity unless you're of the ones that think being saved means you've got a "get out of hell free no matter what you do" card.

So 'come as you are' is not actually true for god cannot stand you as is. The game was indeed rigged from the beginning.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:41 am

And it was a game that was set up on purpose. The players and components were intrigal to the plan, and without one of them, . . . there would have BEEN none of this silly "redemption" stuff.

Hey, maybe THAT'S the first "intelligent design" ever made. "Irreducible complexity" of the "sin/redemption" game. I know it is said that "Adam was created perfect but chose to fall on his own". That's BS. He was perfectly made to fall so that ALL humanity would feel crappy about themselves, feel the "need for salvation", turn to the one who started it in the first place, asking this god to save them from the same god who will destroy them otherwise, . . . THEN get all kinds of accolades and glory from these puny humans.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:17 pm

DeavonReye wrote:And it was a game that was set up on purpose. The players and components were intrigal to the plan, and without one of them, . . . there would have BEEN none of this silly "redemption" stuff.

Hey, maybe THAT'S the first "intelligent design" ever made. "Irreducible complexity" of the "sin/redemption" game. I know it is said that "Adam was created perfect but chose to fall on his own". That's BS. He was perfectly made to fall so that ALL humanity would feel crappy about themselves, feel the "need for salvation", turn to the one who started it in the first place, asking this god to save them from the same god who will destroy them otherwise, . . . THEN get all kinds of accolades and glory from these puny humans.
With no option to say 'no thanks' to play this game, all lose.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:28 pm

Speaking as a hell-bound apostate new-ager, Jesus fixed our wrong thinking when he taught that we are never separate from God and are, in fact, One with the Divine.

But don't listen to me.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:30 pm

I'll listen to you, TED, . . . . but don't expect many to, on that point.

jumbojava, . . . there is the ability to opt out of the game. It's called "non-literal/non-inerrantist".
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:20 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Speaking as a hell-bound apostate new-ager, Jesus fixed our wrong thinking when he taught that we are never separate from God and are, in fact, One with the Divine.

But don't listen to me.
Then JC didnt realy 'fix' anything other just reminding some of what they may have forgotten Which also means no need to worship him, yes?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:21 pm

DeavonReye wrote:I'll listen to you, TED, . . . . but don't expect many to, on that point.

jumbojava, . . . there is the ability to opt out of the game. It's called "non-literal/non-inerrantist".
Well, that depends....

(hey, I'm a libra, what do you expect?)
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:29 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Speaking as a hell-bound apostate new-ager, Jesus fixed our wrong thinking when he taught that we are never separate from God and are, in fact, One with the Divine.

Exactly, TED. There's a good deal of argument that that's what the word "atonement" originally meant--at-ONE-ment, or the state of being united with the Divine. In short, it had nothing to do with the idea that one must feel sorry for having sinned and make amends or that Jesus "atoned" for human sin by his death and resurrection.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:59 pm

Then JC didnt realy 'fix' anything other just reminding some of what
they may have forgotten Which also means no need to worship him, yes?

Exactly, which is why we're apostate and hell-bound.

DotNotInOz wrote:
TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Speaking as a hell-bound apostate new-ager, Jesus fixed our wrong thinking when he taught that we are never separate from God and are, in fact, One with the Divine.

Exactly, TED. There's a good deal of argument that that's what the word "atonement" originally meant--at-ONE-ment, or the state of being united with the Divine. In short, it had nothing to do with the idea that one must feel sorry for having sinned and make amends or that Jesus "atoned" for human sin by his death and resurrection.

Have you ever seen my New Thought library online? I have oh... a few thousand pages on At-ONE-ment. Wink

By the way, here's a plug to anyone interested: Our Divine Science daily reading is called At-One-Ment, and provides a good daily meditation for a good price if you enjoy/need that kind of thing. The Federation headquarters in St. Louis MO sends it out and you can see the sampler and order at http://www.divinesciencefederation.org/ . It's very similar to Unity's Daily Word, which, by the way, preceded every Christian daily reading publication like the Daily Bread, etc., who followed our lead.


Sample:
At-One-Ment - - for Monday April 14

I AM TEACHABLE.

Bigotry and intolerance result from the false belief that God can be monopolized.

In Truth I know that there are no "chosen people": all are equally
the children of God. I respect the ideals and beliefs of others, even
when they differ from mine, for I know, as a Chinese philosopher once
said, "there is more than one path to the top of the mountain."

I live by the Truth as it is revealed to me, but I am not deluded
that it is the whole truth. My unfolding vision cannot compass the
Infinite. As I develop in spiritual understanding I expect to receive a
clearer concept of the One Truth than I now hold. Therefore I am humble
in heart and receptive in spirit, knowing that much is hidden which
shall yet be made known.

"Teach me your mood, O patient stars." Teach me to "wait upon the
Lord" for all the good He has promised. God has heard my prayer. In
love He answers me. Teach me to be still...and know.

Lead me in thy truth, and teach me.

Psalms 25:5

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:12 am

An interesting experiment is getting yourself one of those Bibles that has all of what Jesus said in red. Read your way through the NT reading only those portions. If you do, you'll find that Jesus never said Word One about worshipping him, nor did he ever refer to himself as a deity. Always his references are to giving honor and glory to God the Father.

So, given that along with what Tiger and I've said about at-ONE-ment, no one need get their lingerie in a disoriented configuration over Christians intent upon promoting the deity of Jesus. That's simply their understanding, which is NOT BIBLICALLY JUSTIFIED.

Some of the Gnostics argue further that when Paul refers to Jesus as "the Christ," which has often been thought an odd expression, he was alluding to the belief that Jesus was more fully unified with the Divine than other people. "The Christ" simply meant "christ consciousness" which anyone could achieve by working at spiritual development. In short, any one of us can become a "christ." Thus, the argument continues that when Saul had his transformative vision of Jesus while on the road to Damascus, he took the name Paul to signify that he was a changed man.

Do much of any reading about how what we know today as the Bible has come down to us, and you'll find that alterations both accidental and intentional have occurred through the centuries thus giving "support" primarily through Paul's writings to belief in Jesus as God. Bart Ehrman goes into quite a bit of detail about how this sort of thing likely happened.

Keep in mind as well that the church which had sole control over the text for centuries is the very same one that successfully squelched revelations about pedophile priests until just a few years ago. Saying one thing and doing quite another is nothing new in Catholicism. Ever heard of the Borgias? Their father was a POPE.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:41 am

To set the record straight, there has been more than one version of the Christ since the beginning of the Jewish religion, from which Jesus rose from. Noah was the Christ (anointed one) selected above all others to save the best of the bible god's creation. Moses was the Christ chosen to lead the Israelites from Egypt. Joshua was the Christ who defeated the Canaanites and secure an Israeli homeland. Then of course there was Jesus. He set a new path for people to try to follow..... that is until people began to manipulate his teachings to suit their own needs. Cheat codes, if you want to believe Dave's view of it.

One could say that there are still Christs among us today. They come in the forms of the Billy Ghrams, Desmond Tutus, and yes, even the Ghandis. Realizing this, it makes Jesus a little less unique. It just lays out his specific mission. To give people a less stern view of the religion he served..... And I'm not talking about Christianity either.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:44 am

Also, when you consider the fact that there were many other "savior deities" that had similar characteristics, ie. born of a virgin, doing miricles, etc.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by john5180 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:47 am

DeavonReye wrote:Also, when you consider the fact that there were many other "savior deities" that had similar characteristics, ie. born of a virgin, doing miricles, etc.

You're right.... I hadn't considered going outside of the Christian box, but there have been scores of others in different belief systems too.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:16 pm

These are things that I was never given information on until I searched out such things, reading and finding out the truth. . . . when that happens, it demystifies the whole christian experience I had all my life. That and when others point out the various places in the Old Testament where god openly stated that he never wanted a sacrifice, and people were "forgiven" without one, . . . so this idea OF a "sacrifice" is a human notion, . . . . probably another offshoot from some other religion of the day.
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