What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

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What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:05 pm

What is so wrong with being human that God wont have you as is?

What exactly does JC fix to make you more palatable to God?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:42 pm

Well, the christian response would be that "God cannot abide with iniquity", thus "Jesus payed the 'sin price' so that when God looks at us, he sees the 'paid blood of Jesus' covering our iniquity".

Now, people in Heaven could NEVER be as they were on earth and would have to be fundamentaly changed to keep themselves from what is HUMAN. Changed so much, in fact, that they could never be considered who they were when alive. So the whole notion of it is absurd to begin with. Along with that, it is clear that God created within Adam and Eve the will to fail and even the desire, . . . just like everyone. The desire to know things, to promote self, to do what seems okay as long as it doesn't harm any one. Then, the first time Adam and Eve used those GOD given traits, they were punished for it.

So, your question is valid. Why [should God] be all uptight about what we do when we were made this way on purpose, . . .and why not accept people as they are?

*disclaimer - I don't believe in a literal "Adam and Eve", but use them for argument sake.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by wmdkitty on Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:45 pm

If you ask me, there was nothing "broken" to begin with....
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:54 pm

I could give you still more Christian-speak--Catholic version to answer your questions.

However, the simpler answer is that most of these stories are human attempts to explain why we misbehave even though we know better. Read Genesis 1:3 where explanations are given for why people wear clothing, why women hate and fear snakes, why snakes crawl on the ground. Then, there's the bit justifying women's suffering in childbirth but despite childbirth being so painful, women will still desire their husbands. However, the man will be the ruler of the family, a neat little misogynistic addition (presumably because all this misbehavior was the woman's fault, so she obviously needs to be controlled.) Men henceforth must labor to grow crops for food. Finally, God forms clothing of animal skins and puts it on them, a tidy explanation for why nudity is a no-no.

All these being things that people likely wondered about...why we wear clothing, why women tend to fear snakes, why labor pains are so agonizing, why people have to work so hard all their lives simply to keep food on the table. That's all.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:37 pm

At least they could have made the story more realistic.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:52 pm

Yeah, well, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't realistic either, but look at how compelling both of those mythical beings are.

The human imagination is captivated by wondrous beings who can do things we can't. For instance, flooding the entire Earth, destroying whole cities with fire and brimstone, raising people from the dead, multiplying a few loaves and fishes and turning water into wine?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Vorrin on Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:06 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:Yeah, well, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't realistic either, but look at how compelling both of those mythical beings are.

The human imagination is captivated by wondrous beings who can do things we can't. For instance, flooding the entire Earth, destroying whole cities with fire and brimstone, raising people from the dead, multiplying a few loaves and fishes and turning water into wine?

I know you're saying that tongue in cheek, but All 3 beings have alot in common as to why we as humans find them appealing. They all offer magical beings which cannot be seen (most of the time) who require certain behaviour in order to recieve gifts. They all follow the standard hero motif .. overcoming adversity to offer some sort of "prize" to those who fulfill the acceptance criteria of the belief system.

Morever they all create a system by which we can with good faith ignore our carnal arrogant human nature to become something more ideal.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:24 pm

Actually, I'm quite serious in comparing Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny to the Christian God and Jesus.

I think these concepts as commonly understood are all manifestations of human wishful thinking and longing for entities mightier than ourselves to perform miraculous deeds. We know all too well our own limits and thus want to believe in beings with powers we lack. In some instances, we idealize supernatural forces that can redress wrongs and impose justice where our systems fail.

The essential difference obviously is that we know two of the four are wholly imaginary.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:17 am

I think Santa has more in common with Satan than he does with God.

1) the names are anagrams of each other
2) both are also named Nick
3) both wear red
4) both are associated with coal and the punishment of the naughty
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:27 am

DeavonReye wrote:Well, the christian response would be that "God cannot abide with iniquity", thus "Jesus payed the 'sin price' so that when God looks at us, he sees the 'paid blood of Jesus' covering our iniquity".

Now, people in Heaven could NEVER be as they were on earth and would have to be fundamentaly changed to keep themselves from what is HUMAN. Changed so much, in fact, that they could never be considered who they were when alive. So the whole notion of it is absurd to begin with. Along with that, it is clear that God created within Adam and Eve the will to fail and even the desire, . . . just like everyone. The desire to know things, to promote self, to do what seems okay as long as it doesn't harm any one. Then, the first time Adam and Eve used those GOD given traits, they were punished for it.

So, your question is valid. Why [should God] be all uptight about what we do when we were made this way on purpose, . . .and why not accept people as they are?

*disclaimer - I don't believe in a literal "Adam and Eve", but use them for argument sake.

In gamer terms: Jesus provides the cheats codes; so we can beat the boss without learning all the moves.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:09 am

Dave, think about what you are saying. If you use the game analogy, your god is someone to "get around" because you don't know what he wants, when you present him that way, and the Boss in a game IS someone to beat, get around or go through, hopefully over his dead body and who is not very nice. Which, come to think of it, is true about Yahweh in the OT.

Santa is like the Christian god in that both judge children and punish and reward behavior. Both cannot be seen, do not interact directly with their followers. Intermediaries (Parents and other authority figures) tell the children what kind of behavior Santa and Yahweh want and the children (instead of trusting the gods) have to trust that their priest/bible/parents are right. The priests/parents have created the version of the god Santa/Yahweh that is seen and both pass this lore/myths on through the written word and visuals, too. I think both gods are used to manipulate other people's behavior, using the old carrot and stick approach.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:13 pm

So, what did he fix again.....?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:29 pm

jumbojava wrote:So, what did he fix again.....?

the location of final destination
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:11 pm

You see, Dave, this is my whole problem with the theology. God is either God, or he's not. Either he can decide where he wants human souls to go, or he doesn't have that ability. Saying he needs a sacrifice, like the Messiah, not only misunderstands the Jewish mythos, but it... unmans YHWH, if that is a good expression to use.

It limits the powers of a god whose followers say are really limitless.

That, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem I have with the whole savior mythos.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by Genocon on Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:39 pm

You know what we gamers call a game that cannot be beaten without cheat codes?

A shitty one. A poorly designed one.

But it's not the designer's fault, is it? It's somehow the player's, all because of an incident with their parents and an Atari 2600 back in the 70s.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:23 am

duplicate post


Last edited by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:24 am

Genocon wrote:You know what we gamers call a game that cannot be beaten without cheat codes?

A shitty one. A poorly designed one.

But it's not the designer's fault, is it? It's somehow the player's, all because of an incident with their parents and an Atari 2600 back in the 70s.
The game was rigged long ago.....
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:31 am

sacrificialgoddess wrote:You see, Dave, this is my whole problem with the theology. God is either God, or he's not. Either he can decide where he wants human souls to go, or he doesn't have that ability. Saying he needs a sacrifice, like the Messiah, not only misunderstands the Jewish mythos, but it... unmans YHWH, if that is a good expression to use.

It limits the powers of a god whose followers say are really limitless.

That, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem I have with the whole savior mythos.

This sort of thinking goes way back to the beginning of this theology. If the god of the bible was truly perfect, then a "sacrificial system" would never have been instituted. He would have made creatures that would have had nothing for him to get mad at [Adam and Eve]. To become furious with [Hebrews making a golden calf, . . . as if he didn't see it coming]. To come down and see "if it is true" [Sodom and Gomorrah]. The institution of "blood sacrifice" is barbaric and pushes the consequences off onto another living [soon to be dead] creature. These animal sacrifices [ultimately] weren't GOOD enough, which is odd, since god apparently was the one who instituded them. . . . . . . . but then later said that he doesn't even require them. There are places where no sacrifice was wanted [by god] and some "sin" was still forgiven. That seems more advanced to me. . . . . . just forgiving someone who is sorry for what they did and walking with them through the aftermath. . . . not "reaping vengence". Which one seems like the advanced way of thinking, to you?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:40 am

But how does one sin? In my religion we have no such concept. If I do something mean to another person, in what way does that harm my gods? They let the Law of Return teach me to act in a better way. There is no coming to my gods and saying "I'm sorry" - you do that to the person or persons you harmed. You make retribution to those people too, not to the gods. Why would they want retribution when it is not due them?

If I yelled at my gods and told them I hated them, well then, I have acted poorly towards them, unless I truly feel that way and we are parting company. I would then apologize to them, just as I would to anyone I did that to in a fit of rage. They are big enough not to get too bent out of shape about it too. They know me and they know my heart.

I quite see that Yahweh has made a lot of rules (many of which Christians ignore) for his people to follow and if they don't follow his rules then they have to deal with him. I wonder when the Christians get to heaven if their god will punish them for ignoring the rules they did not wish to follow.

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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:55 pm

gillyflower wrote:I quite see that Yahweh has made a lot of rules (many of which Christians ignore) for his people to follow and if they don't follow his rules then they have to deal with him. I wonder when the Christians get to heaven if their god will punish them for ignoring the rules they did not wish to follow.

I see everything in the Bible as entirely human interpretations of what the writers believed their deity to be like and to wish them to do.

Thus, the Old Testament God is much more warlike and harsh than Jesus.

I think these dramatically different images largely resulted from the fact that people's circumstances gradually became less harsh. Rather than being wandering nomadic tribes as they were throughout most of the OT, the Jews became more settled, lived more comfortably and developed more civilized ways of envisioning their deities.

Whether one believes or not that deities exist, the fact remains, IMO, that anything people say about the nature of deities is a human interpretation. The deity itself may be somewhat different in nature than our limited perceptions allow.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:08 pm

gilly, . . . I see what you're saying about "sin" and "asking god for forgiveness". I'm afraid that my christian upbringing has caused that level of "brainwashing" that I tend to think that anything I do wrong is automatically a source of anger for a deity. I'm sure that isn't the case. That's why I'm searching for what would be "the truth" and not something that some men, millenias ago, dictated that I should "know" about god. It's this input that has hurt me.

I have more to say, but am not sure how to get it out......
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:30 pm

Davelaw wrote:
jumbojava wrote:So, what did he fix again.....?

the location of final destination

That's rather vague.

Can you elaborate?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:32 pm

Davelaw wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Well, the christian response would be that "God cannot abide with iniquity", thus "Jesus payed the 'sin price' so that when God looks at us, he sees the 'paid blood of Jesus' covering our iniquity".

Now, people in Heaven could NEVER be as they were on earth and would have to be fundamentaly changed to keep themselves from what is HUMAN. Changed so much, in fact, that they could never be considered who they were when alive. So the whole notion of it is absurd to begin with. Along with that, it is clear that God created within Adam and Eve the will to fail and even the desire, . . . just like everyone. The desire to know things, to promote self, to do what seems okay as long as it doesn't harm any one. Then, the first time Adam and Eve used those GOD given traits, they were punished for it.

So, your question is valid. Why [should God] be all uptight about what we do when we were made this way on purpose, . . .and why not accept people as they are?

*disclaimer - I don't believe in a literal "Adam and Eve", but use them for argument sake.

In gamer terms: Jesus provides the cheats codes; so we can beat the boss without learning all the moves.

So, iow's, god wont have you as is?
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:36 pm

It can be very difficult to get beyond that early brainwashing, as I'm sure you've realized, Deavon.

However, it's a really restrictive way to live, I believe, that leaves people feeling inadequate and fearful rather than able to enjoy life. Because Jewish law is so detailed and demands so very much of people has a good deal to do with why Christianity developed the concept of Jesus being sacrificed for human sin, seems to me.
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Re: What Exacty did Jesus Fix?

Post by jumbojava on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:41 pm

DeavonReye wrote:gilly, . . . I see what you're saying about "sin" and "asking god for forgiveness". I'm afraid that my christian upbringing has caused that level of "brainwashing" that I tend to think that anything I do wrong is automatically a source of anger for a deity. I'm sure that isn't the case. That's why I'm searching for what would be "the truth" and not something that some men, millenias ago, dictated that I should "know" about god. It's this input that has hurt me.

I have more to say, but am not sure how to get it out......
In my way of thinking the whole Christian way of thinking of god is very unhealthy and crippling.

It is all based on negatives: God hates sin. God kills. GOd wants blood. You are born good enough, damaged, full of sin and disgusting to god. You are an abomination. You are going to hell if you eff it up. God will come back and kill more and you will if you dont believe any of this....

It leaves a very ugly view of one's self, life and living.

Who would want that???

IMHO the bible isnt so much on how to get to god but more an instruction manual on how to breed the perfect human. Its more about animal husbandry than finding god.

Its all effed up if you ask me...
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