Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:03 pm

It is a fear issue. The fear of something bad happening if you don't do what you're told. But when you look at it, . . . . the "if you don't love the christian god, HE will punish you for that", . . . it sounds VERY petty . . . .and human. And that is ultimately where that mindset came from. . . . from the mind of a human trying to understand what he actually never did. Even extreme belief in a false concept doesn't make it right. And this one, regardless of how many have believed it throughout time, . . . is flawed on a fundamental level.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:18 pm

Step on a crack, break your mother's back...

There is a lot of superstitious thought to some Christian's version of their religion, fear always of what may happen as ridiculous as it might be on a logical level.

"What if you do step on a crack and your mother's back breaks?"
"What if you reject Yahweh and he does kill you?"

Oh, the boogiemen who live under the bed.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:51 pm

Here's a little something I asked on the christian site:

Me: "Do the "non-elect" have a choice in their "non-electness"?"

Opponent: "No, they dont have choice. It is up to Jesus to elect them. They are the most faithful ones."

Me: What does that mean, . . "the most faithful ones"? Isn't it god who grants a measure of faith? So, why would a person be held accountable, if they have no choice in the matter? It's not up to them, . . . and the get punished for it?"

More to come, I'm sure, . . . . but isn't it interesting that some people actually believe in this sort of theology?
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:13 pm

It's worse that that; a true hyper-Calvanist believes they are elect-regardless of faithfulness.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:18 pm

And, if true [hyper-calvanism], wouldn't that make god completely unfair! Thanks for that info, Dave.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by Davelaw on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

if by unfair you mean arbitrary and possibly capricious ? YES
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by TPaine on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:39 am

If we're going to consider Calvanism, lets bring up the five points or TULIP

T stands for Total Depravity:
The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbour and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)

U stands for Unconditional election: The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.

The doctrine of unconditional election is sometimes made to stand for all Reformed doctrine, sometimes even by its adherents, as the chief article of Reformed Christianity. However, according to the doctrinal statements of these churches, it is not a balanced view to single out this doctrine to stand on its own as representative of all that is taught. Unconditional election and its corollary in the doctrine of predestination are never properly taught, according to Calvinists, except as an assurance to those who seek forgiveness and salvation through Christ, that their faith is not in vain, because God is able to bring to completion all whom He intends to save. Nevertheless, non-Calvinists object that these doctrines discourage the world from seeking salvation.

L stands for Limited Atonement: Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinistic understanding of the nature of the atonement. Namely, Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.

I stands for Irresistible grace: The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.

The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

P stands for Perseverance of the saints: Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints. The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

This doctrine is slightly different from the Free Grace or "once saved, always saved" view advocated by some evangelicals in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if they accepted Christ at any point in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may indicate that they were never saved.

Source: Wikipedia

Somehow the idea that God will punish the majority of the world while saving a minority given the fact that all these people, saved and unsaved, started out in exactly the same boat. IMO, it's kind of like the SS at Auschwitz. As the people came in the guards would say, you work in the mines, you dig tunnels to hide V2's from the Allied bombing. You all over there, you go to the showers. Pay no attention to the bitter almond smell.

And just one question about the concept of original sin. God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Until they actually disobeyed God, and ate the fruit, they wouldn't know disobeying God was wrong. Therefore it could be said they were punished because they sinned, yet until they did it, they didn't know they has sinned. Some people might call that being punished as well as punishing everyone still not born even though the two that disobeyed didn't realize that disobedience was wrong until after they did it.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:29 am

Yep, I was taught a lot of that with my parents and various minister's particular spins. You didn't have to worry about the elect because Yahweh was perfectly capable of taking care of that himself and who know why he picks the ones he does - that's his business. The only thing we could do was to live a good and honorable life and hope for the best. I think there was a Scottish attitude slant in there too that if that wasn't good enough for Yahweh, then tough - and I expect you can imagine the real phrase!

My parents however did not believe that everyone who wasn't picked was doomed to hell. They had this personal version of their faith in which it wouldn't be fair to condemn all people to hell so that wasn't going to happen. They kind of thought there was some perfectly good place everyone else was going, what it was they weren't too sure about. They did not worry overmuch about hell.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:12 am

After thinking about it: It really it a view of Yahweh that particularly suits the Scots, I think. It allows the "old biddies" male and female to think that they will naturally be picked and everyone else is going to be punished, very satisfying to them. It also allows the people like my parents who know how to have a good time to think that Yahweh would be a fool to surround himself with that kind of people. He would pick the ones who are entertaining and interesting for his eternal celestial party.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:44 am

You know, . . . it seems two sided, . . . a dichotomy of sorts. . . . . . "the feeling like they deserve Hell", . . . yet "a smug-ness that they were chosen by god to be saved".

I used to be in a church who believed in the TULIP thing, . . . and I have to say that I whole heartedly disagree with every point of it.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:31 pm

The point I agree with is that every god who has an afterlife should have final say about who gets in, not the humans, and that humans can't make promises to other humans that the god is going to call it like the human sees it, rather than how the god(s) sees it. It is an encouragement to get yourself a personal relationship going with your gods.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:51 pm

I would LOVE to, . . . but I seem to be blocked. . . .unable to "hear" who ever is my god(dess). I'm open to it, just not seeing a contecting point.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:24 pm

All I can say is maybe try studying about different goddesses in depth, looking at artwork about them and talking to them. You might start to find ones that feel right and after that who knows?

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by john5180 on Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:37 pm

DeavonReye wrote:I would LOVE to, . . . but I seem to be blocked. . . .unable to "hear" who ever is my god(dess). I'm open to it, just not seeing a contecting point.

Why not let them pick you? This isn't as far fetched as it sounds, Deavon. I aligned myself to those who seemed to "call out to me". I can't explain it any other way. By reading up on different god(s)/goddess(es) of different paths, the ones who most intrigue you will be the stand outs. And from there, they can choose you.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:44 pm

gillyflower wrote:All I can say is maybe try studying about different goddesses in depth, looking at artwork about them and talking to them. You might start to find ones that feel right and after that who knows?

Sounds like a good idea. Can you point me to a place/webpage/book where I would be able to find such information/pictures? Thanks! :-)
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:49 pm

john5180 wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:I would LOVE to, . . . but I seem to be blocked. . . .unable to "hear" who ever is my god(dess). I'm open to it, just not seeing a contecting point.

Why not let them pick you? This isn't as far fetched as it sounds, Deavon. I aligned myself to those who seemed to "call out to me". I can't explain it any other way. By reading up on different god(s)/goddess(es) of different paths, the ones who most intrigue you will be the stand outs. And from there, they can choose you.

I am comletely all for "being picked". It would be a wonderful day.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:24 pm

Perhaps others will list pages for you to check out? (hint, hint)

Why not start with the Greek gods? Or think about your ancestry and start with the gods of your people? Another way is to think about what country's heritage you have always wanted to learn about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures

You might like to research Asherah who some believe was the consort at one time of Yahweh before the Hebrews kicked her out of the pantheon and turned to monotheism. I find this one very interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

P.S. The links/bibliography at the end of each Wikipedia article lead onward to other information and are a good jumping off place.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:42 pm

Thanks for the links.

As for my heritage, . . . I have the following [that I know of]: German, Polish, Scottish, Irish. . .
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:51 pm

Well, if you want to pour through everyone's sacred documents to see if a story speaks to you...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:58 pm

Thank you for the link, sg.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by TPaine on Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:23 am

DeavonReye wrote:Thanks for the links.

As for my heritage, . . . I have the following [that I know of]: German, Polish, Scottish, Irish. . .
For the German you may want to study Asatru which was the Germanic concept of the Norse Gods. you may want to read the Eddas.

If you want to emphasize your Irish heritage, I suggest you contact Gorm_Sionnach who posts here on occasion. He seems to be into Fálachus, Gaelic Reconstructionist, Polytheist.

IMO, he's a great guy and would be happy to help you find out if the old Galic Cods will contact you
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:42 am

Thank you, TPaine.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by AutumnalTone on Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:42 pm

DeavonReye wrote:

Sounds like a good idea. Can you point me to a place/webpage/book where I would be able to find such information/pictures? Thanks! :-)

http://webspace.webring.com/people/nl/lilinah_haanat/majdei.html
http://webspace.webring.com/people/nl/lilinah_haanat/mindei.html

A look at some Canaanite deities, including Athirat/Asherah, with images of ancient artwork.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:03 pm

Thanks, SC!



BTW, . . . get a load of this post, from that webpage. It is hard to believe that he was serious, . . .but.....

Hugo, for you to say that the Bible is just like any other ancient text shows that you don't know what's in the Bible nor understand it. The Bible is the only text that commands people to "test everything."(1 Thessalonians 5:21). It is the only ancient text that gives a logical account of creation based on the scientific method. It is the only ancient text that has a personal God who strives to bring his creations into his family, and God is the only god who doesn't have human weaknesses. Zeus cheated on his wife and raped a woman, Artemis was hateful and sexist, Aphrodite destroyed a woman's life because her parents said that she was more beautiful than the goddess, and Odin had a split personality. But God has been faithful and just throughout the Biblical text. The Bible is far different from any other ancient text or pagan god, and our God is great.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:12 pm

What actually do you call impregnating a very young girl without her permission, one who is engaged to a human besides rape? Just because poor Mary can't remember the incident - is that any different than using a date rape drug on a woman so she can't remember or report it? That story has always bothered me in the bible and I feel that it IS on a par with Zeus. But again, the stories come from the same part of the world and none of the gods were perfect. We can all point to stories in the bible where Yahweh did not act in an honorable manner.

I don't mind people being blind about the flaws of their gods or their children as long as they don't try to tell everyone else who isn't related or in a different religion about how perfect their imperfect children and gods are. Just because they are blind doesn't mean everyone else is. And no, I don't consider flaws in gods or being able to recognize them as denigrating gods. We are supposed to learn from the gods. It is kind of hard to do that, IMO, when you can't tell good behavior from bad behavior.

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