Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

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Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:49 am

I'm in a discussion about the "ethical/moral actions of god" and how somethings can be justified. It only got as far as "because he's the creator", . . .and after that, after pushing about how creating life constitutes ethical and moral standards and how some things seem less than [from biblical accounts], . . . . I get stuck in thread after thread of "you can't understand such things because you have to believe FIRST, then 'god will reveal truth to you' at that time". They won't discuss it with me, . . . won't give me their opinions on my questions. It is a bit annoying. Do they really NOT have answers so then only being able to state the "you're not saved, thus cannot know the truth" line?
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by jumbojava on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:11 pm

Where's the thread at....?
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by John T Mainer on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:13 pm

It is because they use sin in the place of morality or ethics. Sin is acting contrary to the will of their pet deity, and right action is doing his will.

You cannot have a discussion about how Samson raping a Phillistine child is righteous without first choosing to set aside your own morality and embracing the metaethical assumption that rape as an excuse to spawn a genocide is right and holy because god desires to go to war with the Philistines.

If you judged the bible using any other moral and ethical standards, many of the prophets and heroes would be judged as criminally insane rather than holy. For this reason, they simply won't discuss morality or ethics with you until you agree that god is the source of all goodness, and that doing what he says is the only possible definition of good.

The unforgivable sin was doubt, because honestly, will this belief stand up to even cursory examination?

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:14 pm

jumbojava wrote:Where's the thread at....?

Oh, jumbojava, it is in another forum.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:17 pm

John T Mainer wrote:It is because they use sin in the place of morality or ethics. Sin is acting contrary to the will of their pet deity, and right action is doing his will.

You cannot have a discussion about how Samson raping a Phillistine child is righteous without first choosing to set aside your own morality and embracing the metaethical assumption that rape as an excuse to spawn a genocide is right and holy because god desires to go to war with the Philistines.

If you judged the bible using any other moral and ethical standards, many of the prophets and heroes would be judged as criminally insane rather than holy. For this reason, they simply won't discuss morality or ethics with you until you agree that god is the source of all goodness, and that doing what he says is the only possible definition of good.

The unforgivable sin was doubt, because honestly, will this belief stand up to even cursory examination?

Hallelujah. I think this IS the answer. I don't think they will openly say the same thing, though. But you're right. It is the same mindset that says, "might makes right", . . . as found in the story of Job.

Thanks for your input.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by jumbojava on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:20 pm

DeavonReye wrote:
jumbojava wrote:Where's the thread at....?

Oh, jumbojava, it is in another forum.

Email me with a link...
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:48 pm

Okay, I sent the email. Most of my contribution to that thread is on the latter pages. 12-14 or so.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by jumbojava on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:53 pm

Got it, thanx! Smile
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:57 pm

You're welcome.


Anyway, this is what was being discussed, . . . among other things....this is from my last post:

Back to topic, though, . . . "does god love everyone". Two view points were hotly debated between christians, both having scriptures to back themselves up. Both would claim that they got their opinions via "spiritual discernment". So how am I supposed to take "you need to believe before god will reveal truth to you" seriously when those who DO believe can't agree on something so fundamental as "does god love everyone?"
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by jumbojava on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:58 pm

And they accuse you of circular reasoning...???

Ohmygods....!
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:18 pm

LOL . . . Yeah, couldn't believe that one either!
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:20 pm

jumbojava wrote:Got it, thanx! Smile

Don't get yourself into trouble.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:17 pm

"Spiritual discernment," huh? Most of the Christians I've argued their beliefs with claimed that once you've accepted Jesus as your Savior, then the Holy Spirit will fill you with the grace of understanding what the Bible is saying.

All I can say is that there must be a lot of fake Holy Spirits inspiring people, or maybe the HS has one helluva sense of humor and enjoys inspiring people to make hotly contradictory interpretations of what's said.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by jumbojava on Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:27 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
jumbojava wrote:Got it, thanx! Smile

Don't get yourself into trouble.

Who, moi? Never!

Especially since they first have to approve your reply before they post it....!

I'm sure that as soon as they realize I'm another Pagan invader I'm out the door.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Are you sure your post has to be approved? Mine post right away.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:00 pm

John T Mainer wrote:The unforgivable sin was doubt, because honestly, will this belief stand up to even cursory examination?

Exactly. And once you start examining all the things about Christianity that don't make sense, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

There's a reason why so many clergy are closeted atheists...they've studied theology enough to KNOW that it makes no rational sense whatsoever.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:34 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
John T Mainer wrote:The unforgivable sin was doubt, because honestly, will this belief stand up to even cursory examination?

Exactly. And once you start examining all the things about Christianity that don't make sense, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

There's a reason why so many clergy are closeted atheists...they've studied theology enough to KNOW that it makes no rational sense whatsoever.

And if you were to make a comment about something, . . . they would say that you don't understand it in context, . . . or [again] that you won't understand it until you open yourself up to serving god. That's where my thread [in that other forum] has come to. You see, they make you sound like you are completely evil if you find issue with something biblical. They enjoy pushing the "if you reject god now, then...." . . . fill in the blank. It's all about the "snake oil salesman" selling his product and how it will benefit you, . . .but you don't have to buy it, . . . however, if you don't, you will meet with some unknown fate.

It's pretty aggravating, really.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:39 pm

Welcome to life with my mother. Smile

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:29 pm

What???


Good one!
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:02 pm

Good news. I actually got one of them to admit that "babies are NOT innocent because, by the default of Adam's sin, all are guilty". That was the apostle Paul's opinion, of course. Paul was freakin weird, if you ask me.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:32 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Good news. I actually got one of them to admit that "babies are NOT innocent because, by the default of Adam's sin, all are guilty".

That was the standard position of the Catholic church about all unbaptized humans, known as Original Sin, when I was a kid back in the 1950's. Now, it was also mentioned (although this wasn't official doctrine) that there was a place called Limbo for good people who lived before the time of Christ who couldn't have been baptized and thus wouldn't be in heaven. I was also told that that's where a baby who died without being baptized would go. It was presumed to be a happy place, but no one there would be in the presence of God, which I thought was one helluva nasty deal when it was hardly their fault they died before anyone could baptize them.

This belief in the necessity of baptizing babies as quickly as possible after birth allowed a lay person such as a doctor or nurse attempting to save a baby in medical crisis to baptize. Generally though, if a baby was in good health, it might be as long as a few weeks to a month before the baptism was done.

Back in the days when Catholics generally believed that anyone not a baptized Catholic was going to hell, a Catholic who came upon people dying of injuries suffered in an accident could baptize them, too.

I don't know how other Christian denominations that believe in infant baptism justify it, probably similarly.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:26 pm

Btw, Deavon, I thought of you when I began rereading Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason a few days ago. If you've never read it, I bet you'd appreciate it. The full text of it is probably still available online. That's how I first read it although now I've a book of it.

Paine was commonly condemned as an atheist largely as a result of this piece. He definitely was not an atheist, which he makes quite clear throughout, but pointing out the many contradictions and other bits of illogic in the Bible is more than enough to get oneself labeled an atheist as far as most Christians are concerned.

It's especially interesting if you keep a Bible nearby so that you can look up his references as you read.
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:41 pm

I will have to look that book up. Probably would be a good read for me. Thanks!
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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:17 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Good news. I actually got one of them to admit that "babies are NOT innocent because, by the default of Adam's sin, all are guilty". That was the apostle Paul's opinion, of course. Paul was freakin weird, if you ask me.

Augustine, actually, reading Paul through seriously f*cked up glasses.

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Re: Why is it...."have to believe before ?? answered"

Post by AutumnalTone on Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:45 pm

Augustine was a seriously evil man.

ANyway, Project Gutenberg has Paine's writings. The Age of Reason can be found here: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3743
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