Wrestling thread

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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:56 am

Cripes, I hate doing these lists because any ranking would be arbitrarily influenced by my personal preferences for mat and chain wrestling. Also, remember that I started watching in the mid-eighties so a lot of the all-time greats are workers I've only seen in limited archive footage. Thesz and Brisco, I've seen enough that I feel comfortable with including them in any hypothetical Hall of Fame (I believe both are in the actual Hall of Fame).

Of workers who were actually active from the time I started watching and basing it purely on their in-ring talent, I would include (in no particular order): Ric Flair, Rick Steamboat (why he never got the plaudits he deserved is beyond me), Curt Hennig, Bret Hart, Owen Hart (I always felt Owen was the superior worker of the brothers), Dean Malenko (for reasons already mentioned), Kenta Kobashi and Kurt Angle (is there anything Kurt hasn't won?).

Guys who I personally enjoyed watching perform but don't feel comfortable adding to the all-time greats, you could also add: Steve Austin (pre-neck injury), Vader (pre-WWF), the Steiner Brothers (pre-split), Rick Rude (who I always felt was criminally underrated), Jake Roberts (mediocre worker but had more presence than anyone I've seen since), Jushin Liger, Tatsumi Fujinami, Mitsuharu Misawa and Samoa Joe.

And the very first thing I'm going to do when the time machine is invented is commission a best-of-three between an in-their-prime Angle and Thesz.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:47 pm

The only problem I have with your list is your inclusion of two performers, Flair and Steamboat. Both were great at what they did, but neither one was a real wrestler. Flair patterned his character on the '40s and '50 heel performer Nature Boy Buddy Rogers. He even used Rogers' Nature Boy nickname and figure-four leg lock finisher. The two had a brief feud in Crockett Promotions Mid-Atlantic Wrestling in 1978. Neither one could win a contest with a shooter.
If your Thesz - Angle match were a contest it wouldn't last long since Thesz was a true hooker. The people who taught Thesz, George Tragos and Ad Santel, were known for ending careers. Santel was the person who damaged George Hackenschmidt's knee in a workout before his return match against Frank Gotch in 1911. Gotch's people paid him $5,000 to do it. He was World Judo Champion in Japan, and learned hooking at the famous Snake Pit in Wigan, England. Tragos destroyed a kid's arm in a match with a double wrist lock because he was pissed off at the promoter who told him he would lose the match whether he liked it or not. Given the knowledge Thesz had to cripple people, Angle wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell in a contest.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:56 pm

I have to include performers. Wrestling has been almost entirely a performance for my lifetime. Besides, I love the performance side as well.

How do you think Thesz would have managed with Brock Lesnar? Granted, Thesz was by far the superior wrestler but there's also Lesnar's massive size and strength advantage to consider.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:22 pm

I like performances too, as well as they're well done. I especially like the X Division in TNA. It's hard to top boys like AJ, Daniels, the Guns, and Samoa Joe even though he's over the weight limit. He Still has the moves.
As far as Thesz/Lesner goes, a good hooker can negate the size and strength of an opponent. George Tragos was a middleweight, but was feared by heavyweights because of his knowledge and a mean streak. Ad Santel never weighed much more than 165 lbs., but in his day champions, even hookers like Joe Stecher at 220 and Ed Lewis at 265 would not wrestle Santel in a contest. Those are the people who trained Thesz.
I would like to see Lesner against Lashley in a straight contest.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:01 am

That would be a good fight. If Lesnar's career survives his current health problems, my bet is you'll see it within the next year or so too.

Incidently, added to my list of truly great workers: My countryman, "Dynamite" Tommy Billington.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:59 pm

Ebon wrote:That would be a good fight. If Lesnar's career survives his current health problems, my bet is you'll see it within the next year or so too.

Incidently, added to my list of truly great workers: My countryman, "Dynamite" Tommy Billington.
I'd even include a young William Regal, and I like Nigel McGuinness although I've only seen him squashing Kurt Angle. I haven't seen enough of either Doug Williams or Brutus Magnus in singles action to have a valid opinion.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:00 am

Williams has been bouncing around the international circuit for as long as I can remember. Although a few years past his prime now, he's still a phonomenal technical worker. His style can best be described as a mixture of British-style mat wrestling and Japanese strong style. Magnus is one of those guys tailor-made for tags. He has neither the talent nor the charisma to stand out on his own but as part of a team, he's entirely capable.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:21 am

Jim Ross blogged something yesterday that I actually agree with. He discussed the problem of concussions in sports, pointed out that the WWE is hardly unique in that regard (which is fair comment) but finished up with the comment that deliberate chair shots to the skull should be forbidden in wrestling. And I couldn't agree more.

We know Chris Benoit had extensive brain damage from repeated concussions. According to ESPN, Andrew "Test" Martin was in a similar position. Repeated concussions ended the careers of Chris Nowinski, Bret Hart and many others. Vampiro is still performing today with existing brain damage from repeated concussions. Now, concussions are always a danger in any physical sport and wrestling is no different but the current trend of deliberate and repeated chair shots to the skull certainly isn't helping. And in addition to concussions, it's causing any number of neck problems as well (Kurt Angle's neck problems were aggravated by chair shots).

For years, chair shots in wrestling were directed at the back or shoulders. Sure, occasionally someone would miss or lose their grip and clock the other guy in the head but those were accidents. And the boys were healthier at the time. There's a lot of other factors, obviously, but one has to believe that chair shots to the head played some role in that.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:47 am

Ebon wrote:Williams has been bouncing around the international circuit for as long as I can remember. Although a few years past his prime now, he's still a phonomenal technical worker. His style can best be described as a mixture of British-style mat wrestling and Japanese strong style. Magnus is one of those guys tailor-made for tags. He has neither the talent nor the charisma to stand out on his own but as part of a team, he's entirely capable.
Ok, now I'm pissed. I had just finished a response to this post and before I could hit send, the power went out. Obviously my battery backup needs to be replaced. Oh well, I'll try to summarize what I planned to say. From what I've seen, tag teams have always been a way to hide a weak link you want to keep on your roster. There have been a few that were made up of two first rate workers. Back in the fifties and sixties there were the Fabulous Kangeroos (Al Costello and Roy Heffernan) and in the sixties, Mark Lewin and Don Curtis, in the seventies, The Minnesota Wrecking Crew (Gene and Ole Anderson) and in the eighties The British Bulldogs (Before Tom Billington's injuries). From what I've noticed in face teams, the stronger worker always plays the "face in peril" part, ie. Ricky Morton (Rock and Roll Express), Shawn Michaels (Midnight Rockers). Today, the only two teams that seem to be made up of workers of equal ability are in TNA; Beer Money and the Motor City Machineguns. I have not seen enough matches in Japan to comment.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:12 pm

Ebon wrote:Jim Ross blogged something yesterday that I actually agree with. He discussed the problem of concussions in sports, pointed out that the WWE is hardly unique in that regard (which is fair comment) but finished up with the comment that deliberate chair shots to the skull should be forbidden in wrestling. And I couldn't agree more.

We know Chris Benoit had extensive brain damage from repeated concussions. According to ESPN, Andrew "Test" Martin was in a similar position. Repeated concussions ended the careers of Chris Nowinski, Bret Hart and many others. Vampiro is still performing today with existing brain damage from repeated concussions. Now, concussions are always a danger in any physical sport and wrestling is no different but the current trend of deliberate and repeated chair shots to the skull certainly isn't helping. And in addition to concussions, it's causing any number of neck problems as well (Kurt Angle's neck problems were aggravated by chair shots).

For years, chair shots in wrestling were directed at the back or shoulders. Sure, occasionally someone would miss or lose their grip and clock the other guy in the head but those were accidents. And the boys were healthier at the time. There's a lot of other factors, obviously, but one has to believe that chair shots to the head played some role in that.
To the best of my memory, the problem of multiple chair shots and other reckless violence started with the original ECW in the '90s. Workers such as Mick Foley, Terry Funk, the Sandman, Raven, and Tommy Dreamer; plus tag teams like the Dudley Boys, Public Enemy, and especially The Gangstas made violence the norm rather than the exception. That led to promotions like Frontier Martial Arts in Japan, and the Japanese King of the Deathmatch tournament in 1995 won by Foley over Funk. The TLC PPV the WWE is putting on this week comes from ECW.
As a side note. It's finally came to me when I watched this week's RAW, when Sheamus put non-wrestler Mark Cuban through the table. The push Sheamus is getting reminds me of the push Goldberg got in WCW, and like Goldberg he is dangerous. He works way too stiff given his lack of experience, and the odds are he is going to hurt an opponent because he will accidentally overdo a move.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:28 pm

TPaine wrote: To the best of my memory, the problem of multiple chair shots and other reckless violence started with the original ECW in the '90s. Workers such as Mick Foley, Terry Funk, the Sandman, Raven, and Tommy Dreamer; plus tag teams like the Dudley Boys, Public Enemy, and especially The Gangstas made violence the norm rather than the exception. That led to promotions like Frontier Martial Arts in Japan, and the Japanese King of the Deathmatch tournament in 1995 won by Foley over Funk. The TLC PPV the WWE is putting on this week comes from ECW.

Not quite. FMW was the innovator there. They were founded in 1989 which Paulie Heyman only took over the book at ECW in late 1992 (and didn't start remodelling it toward the extreme style until the following year). TLC is an odd case. While ECW did promote Tables, Ladders and Chairs matches, the idea of mixing them all together was genuinely a WWE innovation. Of course, when TLC came about, ECW (in order to maintain their reputation as the most "edgy" promotion) had to go one better and created the Tables, Ladders, Chairs & Canes match.

As a side note. It's finally came to me when I watched this week's RAW, when Sheamus put non-wrestler Mark Cuban through the table. The push Sheamus is getting reminds me of the push Goldberg got in WCW, and like Goldberg he is dangerous. He works way too stiff given his lack of experience, and the odds are he is going to hurt an opponent because he will accidentally overdo a move.

Thing is, Sheamus isn't a rookie. He was around IWW and the British indie circuit for five years before signing with WWE. Goldberg had the excuse that he really was green as grass and, over time, he gradually learned how to tone down the impact while maintaining the style (Bret Hart aside, that was an accident that could have happened to anyone). What I am noticing is that he's using a very different style in WWE. On the indie circuit, his style was not dissimilar to William Regal, an aggressive mat wrestling style with occasional "hammer" moves mixed in (which is the traditional British style) whereas currently, he's working a much more brawling-based high-impact style. So it may be his inexperiance with this style that's tripping him up more than anything. And yeah, he's going to hurt someone if he doesn't ease up.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:33 pm

TPaine wrote: Ok, now I'm pissed. I had just finished a response to this post and before I could hit send, the power went out. Obviously my battery backup needs to be replaced. Oh well, I'll try to summarize what I planned to say. From what I've seen, tag teams have always been a way to hide a weak link you want to keep on your roster. There have been a few that were made up of two first rate workers. Back in the fifties and sixties there were the Fabulous Kangeroos (Al Costello and Roy Heffernan) and in the sixties, Mark Lewin and Don Curtis, in the seventies, The Minnesota Wrecking Crew (Gene and Ole Anderson) and in the eighties The British Bulldogs (Before Tom Billington's injuries). From what I've noticed in face teams, the stronger worker always plays the "face in peril" part, ie. Ricky Morton (Rock and Roll Express), Shawn Michaels (Midnight Rockers). Today, the only two teams that seem to be made up of workers of equal ability are in TNA; Beer Money and the Motor City Machineguns. I have not seen enough matches in Japan to comment.

With Japan, it depends on which weight division you're looking at. The heavyweight tag division is much the same as WCW's approach: Two top-level singles wrestlers marking time in tags between programs in the singles division. The Light Heavyweight/Cruiserweight tag divisions, on the other hand, are dominated by long-term dedicated tag teams. The best of recent years was probably KENTA & Naomichi Marufuji, mixing KENTA's martial arts based style with Marufuji's JapLucha style. Track down some of their matches if you can, they're stunning.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:18 pm

Ebon wrote:With Japan, it depends on which weight division you're looking at. The heavyweight tag division is much the same as WCW's approach: Two top-level singles wrestlers marking time in tags between programs in the singles division. The Light Heavyweight/Cruiserweight tag divisions, on the other hand, are dominated by long-term dedicated tag teams. The best of recent years was probably KENTA & Naomichi Marufuji, mixing KENTA's martial arts based style with Marufuji's JapLucha style. Track down some of their matches if you can, they're stunning.
Logically, a tag team that works together on a regular basis is going to perform better than two singles wrestlers who rarely if ever team together. As I recall, especially in the beginning when Turner first took over Crockett Promotions the WCW had quite a few regularly scheduled, named, tag teams. Some were actually tag team specialists and rarely, if ever, did singles matches at the time. Examples are; The Rock and Roll Express (Robert Gibson & Ricky Morton), The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey or Stan Lane), The Road Warriors (Animal & Hawk), The Nasty Boys (Jerry Sags & Brian Knobbs), Harlem Heat (Booker T & Stevie Ray), and Public Enemy (Johnny Grunge & Rocco Rock). Others were singles wrestlers who regulary performed as a team in tag matches. Examples are; The Steiners (Rick & Scott), Doom (Ron Simmons & Butch Reed), , The Koloffs (Ivan & Nikita), The Outsiders (Kevin Nash & Scott Hall), The Skyscrapers (Danny Spivey & Sid Vicious or Mark Callous), and Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:56 pm

Turner, at one point, had such an array of regular teams that they could and did, put together a blinding tag tournament. Of those, my favourites were always the Midnight Express (V.2 - Lane & Eaton), Anderson & Blanchard and the Steiner Brothers. By the time I got really into wrestling, the Rock n' Rolls were starting to fade and I never cared for the Road Warriors one-dimensional approach. The Nastys couldn't wrestle but, by god, could they brawl! Mick Foley tells a story of going into a tag match with Maxx Payne against the Nastys and really not wanting to be there. It was about eight minutes into teh match when Sags cracked a pool cue over his shoulder that he realised that he needed to start fighting or he wasn't going to make it out in one piece.

The Steiners were genuinely innovative at the time. Their approach of mixing power and science together had never been seen in the West before. Everyone tends to remember Scott as being the superior worker (which he was) but Rick in his prime wasn't too far behind and they could do it all. Both were accomplished amateurs so they could mat wrestle, they were big enough to be credible against the likes of Doom and Scott seemed to make up suplexes as he went along.

You're right in that performing as a true team takes several months to get the hang of. Two singles guys thrown together can perform their own spots but the "feel" of a team; being able to play off your partner, getting team timing down, when to hit the hot tag or just tease it, that's a completely seperate discipline and takes months to develop. The last time we saw it in the WWE was probably the Guerreros (naturally, they also had the advantage of being related). It's traditional for the superior worker to play the FIP because they're going to have to carry the bulk of the match whereas their partner is just going to tag in for the clean-up section (exception for those teams, like Haku & Andre the Giant or Demolition late in Bill Eadie's career, where one half really isn't capable of much). Scott Steiner really emphasised it at one point (just prior to his phonomenal heel turn) by staying in, playing FIP and then making his own comeback to win single-handed.

In the modern day, TNA actually has a tag division and both of their standout teams (Beer Money and the Machineguns) are composed of guys who lack charisma but have everything else. I never did see why TNA released the Naturals, I thought they had a lot of potential. WWE has JeriShow (clearly not long until their split), Legacy (who are actually a bloody good team, albeit raw), teh Hart Dynasty (ditto), MVP/Mark Henry (MVP's got promise, Henry is a waste) and Cryme Tyme (poor workers with an offensive gimmick) and that's it.

Incidently, rumour going around is that the new ECW brand will be folded early next year. I suspect that's for the best. It was never allowed to actually be ECW, the fans have largely rejected it and Vince clearly has no idea what made ECW so special. Apparently, when RVD once asked him why, if no-one remembered ECW, the WWE fans chanted for it whenever something extreme happened, Vince responded (and remember, he genuinely believes this) that he'd spent six years training his fans to chant "ECW". At which point, Rob walked away because really, what can you say to that?
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:49 pm

I agree about the Steiners, Midnight Express, and Anderson & Blanchard. Of course I remember Gene and Ole as the Minnesota Wrecking Crew. I think Scott Steiner has disappointed me the most. He hit the 'roids so hard it pretty much made him too big to be effective. He was no longer able to do the extremely athletic moves that were his bread and Butter. He also appears to have had several incidents of what could be described as 'roid rage. For instance assaulting a Georgia Department of Transportation worker with his pickup truck, getting into a locker room fight with DDP after Scott insulted Kimberly, doing an unsubscripted profanity-laced put down of Ric Flair (saying Flair was a "ass-kissing, butt-sucking bastard") on Nitro saying when Flair's matches were on WCW fans switched to Raw and finishing the rant with ("WCW sucks"), putting down Torrie Wilson's acne in a Nitro interview, getting into a backstage fight with road agent Terry Taylor, and getting thrown of a flight for a disturbance along with Buff Bagwell and Lex Luger.
I hope they do kill ECW. Maybe them some of the workers there would actually get a worthwhile push. Christian, Kozloff, and especially Shelton Benjamin have the skills to hold a major belt. What ever happened to the days when a good worker with no mic skills would be given a manager to do the promos for him? Perhaps the biggest misjudgment McMahon ever made was making Ted DiBiase Steve Austin's manager during his Ringmaster debut because he thought Austin had poor mic skills. Given a Jim Cornette type to do his promos, Kozlov could be an excellent heel champion. I'd also like to see Regal get rewarded for all the years he's put in as a first rate worker.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:37 am

Essentially, WWE no longer hires managers. TNA did for a while, (such as teh Sinister Minister/James Vanderbit/whatever he's calling himself this week) but they've started aping the WWE in that regard and teh art of managing is starting to gradually be lost. There's still a few on the indie circuit and a couple of real-life business managers who show up on tv (i.e. Jimmy Hart & Paul Ellering) but the days of dedicated managers like Jim Cornette or Bobby Heenan are pretty much done.

BTW, having got the results of last night's TLC: I hate to say "I told you so" but... Seems that kissing Tripper's ass pays off.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:53 pm

It looks like I'm going to give up on the WWE. Evidently Vince has finally succumbed to Alzheimer's. Not only did he give Sheamus the WWE Championship after being in the WWE only 9 Months and on Raw for 2 damn months, he gave Drew McIntyre the Intercontinental belt after being in the WWE only 4 months. That's a hell of a way to reward boys who have been busting their asses for the company for years and never getting anything. It seems all you have to do is kiss HHH's ass and you get what you want whether you've earned it or not. Fuck 'em. TNA has a better show anyway.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:56 pm

It's been known for years that Vince has mental issues (during his Playboy interview, he famously fantasised about murdering his stepfather). Myself and Kat have the theory that when the product goes to hell like it has for the last year or so, someone's forgotten to get Vince to take his meds again. Hey, I'm mentally ill too but when I forget to take my meds, I'm not jeapardising a multi-billion dollar business.

Vince is also famously difficult to get along with. Reliable rumour fed to me is that Vince is bankrolling Linda's Senate bid for two reasons: 1) He absolutely despises the federal government ever since he was indicted in 1992 (his performance before the Congressional committee on steroids was so utterly contemtuous, I'm amazed he wasn't jailed for contempt of Congress) and 2) payback for putting up with Vince all these years. Essentially, Vince has gtten ever harder to live with over the years and Linda goes off to campaign for Congress to get some space and thereby preserve their marriage.

Likewise, Shane quit WWE recently largely because he finally had enough of Vince. Vince has always been the kind of guy to try and buy his kid's affection with promotions, stock options, etc. Well, what's been happening the last few years is that, when things were being booked, Steph and Tripper would subtly run down Shane and his ideas. There's one story told by (I think) Dave Laguna that, about a year ago, they were booking a show and Shane came up with an idea and it was a decent idea but in the end, it didn't quite fit with what they were trying to do. Which is fine, that happens all the time. But Steph and Tripper snigger and roll their eyes and stuff and Vince instantly starts screaming at Shane. And he keeps it up for the whole booking meeting. Spends ten minutes ranting at Shane, breaks off to lay-out a segment or two and then goes right back to ranting again. Which is why Shane has gradually had less and less power.

Anyway, about three months ago, Vince and Shane had another massive blow-up and Shane finally thinks "fuck it, I don't have to take this" and hands in his resignation. Officially, it's not effective until the new year but Shane has no duties so he's effectively left already and cashed in a bunch of stock (giving him somewhere between $1.5 and $2 million to spend while he figures out what to do next). Short term, he might well work on his mother's campaign but long term, Shane is the only one of the McMahon's who has a life outside of wrestling, who keeps track of pop culture and has contacts in business outside wrestling. While not as good an ideas man as his dad (previously), he is a superb manager of people so he'll do fine for himself.

TNA has two major problems. The first is money but with Hogan and Bisch coming in (say what you like about Hogan but he brings a formidable bankroll with him), that's less of a problem. The second is that while they have a dedicated, hard-working and mostly talented roster, Russo's booking is atrocious, it makes no sense. Also, they're moving Impact head-to-head with RAW (at Bisch's suggestion apparently) and I'm not sure that's a bright idea. WCW had a loyal fanbase and Turner's money backing them up before they tried this.

One more thing: Bret Hart has apparently resigned with WWE for the new year thru 'Mania corridor. He's expected to guest host the first RAW opposite Impact in January. It would also be absurd if he didn't have at least some interaction with the Hart Dynasty. Here's an idea for you: 'Mania is apparently going to be Shawn Michaels's swansong. Given the history between the two, it would be perfectly fitting for Bret to cost him that last match. If we assume a Shawn-Taker match as you suggested, that also gives us a good way to instantly turn 'Taker heel.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:41 am

Just reading the notes from Monday's RAW and apparently, Michaels has now challenged Undertaker to a rematch at this year's WrestleMania. Given how good last year's match was, I have no problem with that but how does this grab you? 'Taker comes out responds in the next week or so with something like "I already beat you once, Sparky, but if you really want to do this again, fine. But this time, you're going to have to wager your career on it".

That sets up Michaels Vs 'Taker II at 'Mania, title vs career. Michaels wants to retire soon so that's no problem. 'Taker turns heel during the run-up to the match.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:26 pm

IMO, Russo is on the way out. Neither Hogan nor Bischoff can stand him since he fired Hogan live on Nitro after Terry had left the building. Both Hogan and Bischoff say that was a shoot and culminated with Hogan suing WCW. Neither Hogan nor Bischoff was happy when Russo booked David Arquette to win the WCW belt, and were less happy when he booked himself to win it.

TNA is also going to have to understand that they cannot re-create the NWO. It was a one time booking success and WCW ran it into the ground. The Main Event Mafia and the World Elite came across as NWO wannabes. As far as I can tell, the January 4th Monday night TNA broadcast is a one time deal.

It would seem to me that it would make more sense for Bret Hart to feud with Vince during this comeback. They could relive the Montreal Screwjob, and a final match at Wrestlemania could be a Vince vs. Bret match wrestled by surrogates. Vince could choose Shawn and Bret could pick whoever the Champion (HHH?) would be at the time in a career vs. title match. Shawn would lose and get to retire, Vince and Tripps could then attack Bret turning HHH heel, Bret could be saved by Jim Neidhart and the Next Generation Hart Foundation, turning them face, and the finale could be Bret putting Vince in the Sharpshooter and refusing to let go.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:53 pm

TPaine wrote:IMO, Russo is on the way out. Neither Hogan nor Bischoff can stand him since he fired Hogan live on Nitro after Terry had left the building. Both Hogan and Bischoff say that was a shoot and culminated with Hogan suing WCW. Neither Hogan nor Bischoff was happy when Russo booked David Arquette to win the WCW belt, and were less happy when he booked himself to win it.

Couldn't be happier with that. David Arquette, incidently, was also very much against being given the title. As a life-long wrestling fan, he knew that the fans would hate it. He also, very quietly, took his paycheque for that run and split it between the families of Droz, Brian Pillman and Owen Hart. So, say what we like about his title run (and he'd agree), he turned out to be a damn decent man.

TNA is also going to have to understand that they cannot re-create the NWO. It was a one time booking success and WCW ran it into the ground. The Main Event Mafia and the World Elite came across as NWO wannabes. As far as I can tell, the January 4th Monday night TNA broadcast is a one time deal.

Hope so. I think the MEM was more a traditional wrestling "gang" in the mould of the Horsemen than an nWo knockoff.

It would seem to me that it would make more sense for Bret Hart to feud with Vince during this comeback. They could relive the Montreal Screwjob, and a final match at Wrestlemania could be a Vince vs. Bret match wrestled by surrogates. Vince could choose Shawn and Bret could pick whoever the Champion (HHH?) would be at the time in a career vs. title match. Shawn would lose and get to retire, Vince and Tripps could then attack Bret turning HHH heel, Bret could be saved by Jim Neidhart and the Next Generation Hart Foundation, turning them face, and the finale could be Bret putting Vince in the Sharpshooter and refusing to let go.

OK, that works. Trips always works better as a heel anyway.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:01 pm

Ebon wrote:Couldn't be happier with that. David Arquette, incidently, was also very much against being given the title. As a life-long wrestling fan, he knew that the fans would hate it. He also, very quietly, took his paycheque for that run and split it between the families of Droz, Brian Pillman and Owen Hart. So, say what we like about his title run (and he'd agree), he turned out to be a damn decent man.
I have nothing against Arquette, and know he did not approve of the way things were booked. The problem was Russo. The only actors I would even consider putting in the ring would be those who the fans might believe, and I know, could actually defend themselves. The short list that comes to mind would be; Steven Seagal a 7th-dan black belt in aikido, Jeff Speakman a 7th-degree black belt in the Goju-Ryu Karate, Jean-Claude Van Damme an 18-1 MMA record, and Jet Li, a wushu champion.

Ebon wrote:Hope so. I think the MEM was more a traditional wrestling "gang" in the mould of the Horsemen than an nWo knockoff.
You may be right. There seemed to be a purpose, the older stars looking for the respect they deserved. Adding Sting was a bad idea. He cannot play the heel role.

Ebon wrote:OK, that works. Trips always works better as a heel anyway.
They could do a McMahon family angle with Steph booking Tripps into easy title matches, Vince playing the heel role he's so expert at (Methinks it comes to him naturally). You'd just have to come up with a realistic way to end the angle, maybe use Shane?
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:05 pm

Shane's resigned. He's gone.
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by TPaine on Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:46 pm

Who could they get that might be credible standing up to the McMahons? Donald Trump? Warren Buffett? Rupert Murdoch? Sarah Palin? (sarcasm alert, although she may belong in professional wrestling)
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Re: Wrestling thread

Post by Ebon on Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:28 am

Well, Murdoch and Palin share Vince's ultraright political views. Trump might be willing to actually do it since he's done shows before. Buffett almost certainly wouldn't. In the wrestling business there's only three or four who have that kind of standing: Hogan and Bisch (both with TNA so they're out); Flair (rumoured to be on his way to TNA); Sting (can't remember when his TNA contract expires) and perhaps Steve Austin or The Rock (Rock probably wouldn't do it but Austin might).

The single best choice would be Ted Turner but there's no way he would do it and he and Vince hate one another so much that they'd probably be unable to share the same room anyway.
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Re: Wrestling thread

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