Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

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Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:41 pm

The typical fundamentalistic christian doctrine of Hell is that it is a place of literal fire where the "unrighteous" are thrown into for all eternity. This is the doctrine of the church I've been attending. However, Matthew 25:41 says (in the bit about "the sheep and the goats") that hell was "created for the devil and his angels". I've pondered this for a while and wonder how a literal fire would have any affect on a spirit being, like an angel?

In some of the more fundi christian sects, . . . it is actually believed that God will ressurect the "sinners" too, GIVE them a flesh and bone body that will never die, so they will FEEL the pain of this literal physical fire!
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:23 pm

Gehenna, the word used in the NT thats translated Hell was literally the trash heap outside of Jerusalem and symbolically the place where the trash one accumulates in one's life is burned up. In the Talmud, no soul stays in Gehenna for more than a year and day (excepting Haman and Hitler-those few souls who are so evil they get consumed completely).

Hell is a place of fire, a place a darkness, a place of torments not all those these at once, there must be different levels and places-the pit for the angels in chains of darkness, fire to burn the sin and purify the soul causing repentance etc...

Lastly, assume the resurrected have angelic type bodies or something similar-and Jesus never says the fire was for the Angels just the place.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:32 pm

If Hell was created for the angels, including the "literal fire", yet angels are not affected by it, . . . then why make it with a "literal fire"? Just to ressurect flesh and bone bodies to feel its [fire] heat?

I'm aware of the garbage dump of Gehenna, but that's not what many of the fundi sects state. They state it as I have posted.

I'm on facebook, and one of the guys I know from my church posted this:

To worship the One who has rescued my soul from the flames I deserve.....what a priveledge!


That's exactly the mindset that I am talking about, . . . that the flames are literal, . . . and that silly notion that a some VERY finite sins deserve an INfinite punishment, and the complete justLESSness of that, but that's for another topic. It seems that the Bible got it wrong. Hell, as is spoken of in Matthew or Revelation, was completely made to torture flesh and bone bodies.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:39 pm

DeavonReye wrote:If Hell was created for the angels, including the "literal fire", yet angels are not affected by it, . . . then why make it with a "literal fire"? Just to ressurect flesh and bone bodies to feel its [fire] heat?

Why assume the angels are not affected by it? If Angels can eat, and be raped; surely they can feel pain-even if they immediately regenerate.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:56 pm

and Jesus doesn't say that Hell was prepared for the devil and angels; he said everlasting fire aionios pur make of that what you will. I'm guessing it means not Hell; but the Lake of Fire in Revelation in which death and Hell are cast into.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:04 pm

Most of Revelation is HIGHLY metaphorical, . . . . but for the sake of argument, if we consider it [lake of fire] as literal, isn't that the same thing as what Hell is said to be? A burning fire, where the residents are left burning forever?
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:12 pm

Davelaw wrote:and Jesus doesn't say that Hell was prepared for the devil and angels; he said everlasting fire aionios pur make of that what you will. I'm guessing it means not Hell; but the Lake of Fire in Revelation in which death and Hell are cast into.




Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Whether "Hell" or "The Lake or Fire", . . . I think I'm still asking the same thing.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:14 pm

Davelaw wrote:

Why assume the angels are not affected by it? If Angels can eat, and be raped; surely they can feel pain-even if they immediately regenerate.

Just because some verses state this possibility, doesn't make it actually possible. They are spirit beings. Fire is natural.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Sakhaiva on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:17 pm

Davelaw wrote:and Jesus doesn't say that Hell was prepared for the devil and angels; he said everlasting fire aionios pur make of that what you will. I'm guessing it means not Hell; but the Lake of Fire in Revelation in which death and Hell are cast into.

Actually Jesus was using the same language as ancient Israel used. We must remember that the use of fire is always highly symbolic.

Word study on "Gehenna" "Gehenna" was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where they burned the trash. It is related to other ancient practices as well (if you go back to Kings). Like the ancients did in the O.T., Jesus used Gehenna to make a point that our earthly actions had everlasting consequences.

And the notion of hell, btw, is not *fundamentalist Christian* It's a very, very old teaching.

Peace.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:26 pm

DeavonReye wrote:
Davelaw wrote:

Why assume the angels are not affected by it? If Angels can eat, and be raped; surely they can feel pain-even if they immediately regenerate.

Just because some verses state this possibility, doesn't make it actually possible. They are spirit beings. Fire is natural.

NO, this is eternal fire-like the fire in the burning bush
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:41 pm

Curious, Dave. Where do you get that understanding?

Interesting that God would show up to Moses as "a burning bush". Reminds me of the Ori on the last couple of seasons of Stargate SG-1.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:42 pm

Sakhaiva wrote:
Davelaw wrote:and Jesus doesn't say that Hell was prepared for the devil and angels; he said everlasting fire aionios pur make of that what you will. I'm guessing it means not Hell; but the Lake of Fire in Revelation in which death and Hell are cast into.

Actually Jesus was using the same language as ancient Israel used. We must remember that the use of fire is always highly symbolic.

Word study on "Gehenna" "Gehenna" was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where they burned the trash. It is related to other ancient practices as well (if you go back to Kings). Like the ancients did in the O.T., Jesus used Gehenna to make a point that our earthly actions had everlasting consequences.

And the notion of hell, btw, is not *fundamentalist Christian* It's a very, very old teaching.

Peace.

Yes, . . . just trying to keep from lumping all christians into the same mold, as I once did, and was called on. I know that there are those who don't see it as literal, so I am going on the church stance that I am familiar with. The Penticostal type churches, . . . Assemblies of God.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:58 pm

I recall reading about the Greek Hades having been incorporated, rather crudely is my understanding since the narritives of Hades and Hell are rather different, into early Christian writings and eventually adopted.

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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:11 pm

Yeah, I heard that too. . . . .along with several other pagan beliefs.


Just to clear up the original post, the "Hell" I speak of is the place where people are supposed to spend the rest of their eternity as punishment for their thought/belief crime. That's the place where it is said that it was created FOR "the devil and his angels".

So it has been suggested that this fire isn't the fire we know but actually fire like the burning bush, . . . which was supposed to be God. That brings up a lot of issues in itself.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:27 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Yeah, I heard that too. . . . .along with several other pagan beliefs.


Just to clear up the original post, the "Hell" I speak of is the place where people are supposed to spend the rest of their eternity as punishment for their thought/belief crime. That's the place where it is said that it was created FOR "the devil and his angels".

So it has been suggested that this fire isn't the fire we know but actually fire like the burning bush, . . . which was supposed to be God. That brings up a lot of issues in itself.

Never really been interested in Christian eschatology or conceptions of life after death to begin with so... Better off asking someone with a cursory knowledge, and perhaps a horse in the race.

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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:48 pm

DeavonReye wrote:
Sakhaiva wrote:
Davelaw wrote:and Jesus doesn't say that Hell was prepared for the devil and angels; he said everlasting fire aionios pur make of that what you will. I'm guessing it means not Hell; but the Lake of Fire in Revelation in which death and Hell are cast into.

Actually Jesus was using the same language as ancient Israel used. We must remember that the use of fire is always highly symbolic.

Word study on "Gehenna" "Gehenna" was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where they burned the trash. It is related to other ancient practices as well (if you go back to Kings). Like the ancients did in the O.T., Jesus used Gehenna to make a point that our earthly actions had everlasting consequences.

And the notion of hell, btw, is not *fundamentalist Christian* It's a very, very old teaching.

Peace.

Yes, . . . just trying to keep from lumping all christians into the same mold, as I once did, and was called on. I know that there are those who don't see it as literal, so I am going on the church stance that I am familiar with. The Penticostal type churches, . . . Assemblies of God.

and I maintain they are NOT fundamentalists-when we were organizing around the 5 fundamentals of the Faith -they refused to associate with us
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:50 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Curious, Dave. Where do you get that understanding?

Interesting that God would show up to Moses as "a burning bush". Reminds me of the Ori on the last couple of seasons of Stargate SG-1.

eternal fire / fire that is not consumed -seems pretty obvious
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:57 pm

food for thought

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

this passage in Corinthians is almost identical to the Jewish concept of Gehenna as explained in the Talmud
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:31 pm

If it is an all consuming fire, then how do souls (or whatever ends up in it) not become consumed? Also, . . . are you saying that God himself IS the "lake of fire"?
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:39 pm

Common belief that God is the fire; Jon from beliefnet is one of those.

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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:17 pm

Just isn't something that I have ever heard of before. I guess it is as likely as not.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:23 pm

DeavonReye wrote:If it is an all consuming fire, then how do souls (or whatever ends up in it) not become consumed? Also, . . . are you saying that God himself IS the "lake of fire"?

souls are eternal-they can't be consumed


If you are at all interested in remaining in Christianity- I would suggest you read the fictional the Great Divorce by CS Lewis and then maybe follow up with the nonfiction Mere Christianity by the same author-if you are not staying don't bother because these works are designed for those still open to Xianity
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:40 pm

So, this fire isn't ALL consuming. Is it hot? Produce light? Smoke? Is God, the consuming fire, also "the lake of fire"?

These questions aren't just for you, Dave.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:52 pm

The eternal can't destroy the eternal. The Zoarasterians believe the fire represented our souls: which is where the Jews borrowed the idea of fire as a purifer which entually got transmogified into torment.
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:06 pm

So, what I am hearing is that you may not believe this fire to be "tormenting", just purifying?
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Re: Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

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