'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:32 am

I can understand the desire to make a shroud, during that time in history. Pilgrimages were quite popular to see these icons, and the churches benefitted financially from them. To have something like an actual piece of history, the burial cloths of Jesus, . . . that would make for quite a pull for the pilgrimers. More money for the church. Not trying to be a conspiracy theorists here, . . . just saying.

I agree that the christian bible is an idol. It is SAID to be "the words of God", but that is hardly provable, and it is cherished extremely. I know that you [Dave] believe it is THE words of "your lover", and that's fine. Just expressing my opinion.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:11 pm

Whether or not it's actual, as others have alluded, the IDEA of the Shroud's being real is what's important.

I don't think anyone who's not Catholic can understand the importance of various objects such as holy water, statues, holy pictures, relics of saints, etc. within the faith. To non-Catholics, these things are often perceived as idols, but within the Catholic framework, they're regarded as symbols of a greater reality, something material that helps focus a person's devotion to a spiritual thing often beyond our comprehension.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:39 pm

DotNotInOz wrote: To non-Catholics, these things are often perceived as idols, but within the Catholic framework, they're regarded as symbols of a greater reality, something material that helps focus a person's devotion to a spiritual thing often beyond our comprehension.

but thats a good working definition of the objects of worship or veneration or just plain focus of many relgions that the RCC would gladly call idols

statutes of Buddha are not to worship for example
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:45 pm

Buddha demanded no statues ever be made of him, for fear they would become idolized. They were, and have been. Kind of a slap in his face.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:58 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Buddha demanded no statues ever be made of him, for fear they would become idolized. They were, and have been. Kind of a slap in his face.

agreed

early Buddhism was iconoclastic
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:06 pm

Davelaw wrote:focus of many relgions that the RCC would gladly call idols

Yeah, well, that's what happens when you're fond of proclaiming yourselves "The One TRUE Church." (Nevermind how many other of the world's faiths claim this same label...)

Incidentally, most of the faiths designated idolworshipping by the RCC probably regard/ed their statues in much the same aspect as do Catholics theirs. I'm guessing that the "One True" thing had a lot to do with why the Catholic Church of the past bandied about the terms "pagans" and "idol worshippers" as much as it did when I was a kid.

Personally, I find it rather ironic that I used to feel smugly superior donating money to the "adopt-a-pagan-baby" thing now that I myself would be considered Pagan or worse by the RCC. My how things can change! < heh >
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:09 pm

That's funny Dot, (sort of). I remember feeling terribly frightened for those poor Pagans,
when it was explained to me what Pagans were in school,
and how they all went to hell.

I was also given the impression, at least at my school that Pagans really did not exist anymore. That they had faded into the distant past like fog

Little did anyone know............. LOL

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:02 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:

Incidentally, most of the faiths designated idolworshipping by the RCC probably regard/ed their statues in much the same aspect as do Catholics theirs.

Isn't that what I just said?
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:17 pm

Yeah, Dave, so what's your point?
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:36 pm

i didn't know if I needed to be clearer or you were just repeating for emphasis.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:45 pm

Embarassed OK, I must admit, I'm terribly lost here! The statues & the idol stuff, I just don't get what all the fuss is about. Really, don't scream, shout, or ridicule me. I'll take laughing, & poking fun at, but I don't get the big thing behind the statues & idol worship. I didn't see these things in such a way.

As for the Pagans back then (60's)? Well, scratch I seen my family's Old Ways to include the neighborhoods old world ways & I viewed my fathers beliefs & took them also to heart (part Native American). I really thought the Catholic Church was mistaken in what a Pagan was! So as my Nana would say "To each their own." And sure enough, here I am alive & well for my family's old world ways!
The statues were something entirely different however. When the school's & the church, along w all the other ethnic Church's were made to get rid of the statues....all us good Roman Catholics teenagers used to sneak in to the Greek Orthodox church on Sat. eve...just to look at the beauty of their statues. To me its like growing up with art staring you in the face, then the art gallery shuts down. Really alot of the stained glass, & the statues were made by people of the church, or the various ethnic countries in Europe. So what do some people do now? They go to Europe to marvel at the art & again to roam free among history & ruins. LOL, talk about a $$ maker. Whistling
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:00 pm

Willow I never took Statues that way either, I actually had to ask my Mother once what it all meant. She did explain it to me in a way that it made sense, but it is too long ago to remember her words.

However she too, did not see it that way.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:27 pm

cyclops So its just NOT me? Thanks! I thought I missed the boat on this topic of idols, talisman, charms, art, crafts...etc.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:16 pm

Of course, maybe we are both bonkers

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:02 pm

Evil or Very Mad Who us? We're fine its the others, its ALWAYS the others! Twisted Evil
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:06 am

Davelaw wrote:i didn't know if I needed to be clearer or you were just repeating for emphasis.

Sorry about a rather snappish response. I realized too late to edit that I'd echoed what you said as if you'd never said it.

So, I'll take your gracious characterization "repeating for emphasis" and run with that. < sheepish grin >
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:20 am

I've never figured for being ungracious-always willing to give you the benefit of the doubt-even though we don't know each other that well-besides people I've known for years; have recently really shocked me with their posts and responses-so your response is a welcome breath of fresh air
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:35 am

Willowcreek70633 wrote:cyclops So its just NOT me? Thanks! I thought I missed the boat on this topic of idols, talisman, charms, art, crafts...etc.

I think the objections many people who belong to various Protestant denominations have to the importance of images in Catholicism is that most Protestant branches stress direct communication with Jesus or God without any intermediaries. Thus, it's difficult for many Protestants to understand that Catholicism is like the big families Catholics traditionally had...lots of kids, cousins, uncles, aunts...and the saints.

Jesus's family and the various saints seem like part of one's own family oftentimes, they're talked about so much. Since I had two uncles who were killed in World War II, it was an easy extension for me to think of "the community of saints" as family in spirit along with my uncles. I don't remember which exactly, but there's a Catholic prayer about the dear departed resting in peace within the community of saints, so the saints always seemed like part of the Catholic family past and present to me.

I don't think that Protestants, whose churches tend to be very simply decorated, can understand the importance of visual inspiration within Catholicism, another part of why they think Catholics pray TO statues. To this day, I find Protestant churches visually bare and boring. It still seems "normal" to me for a church to have lots of visually appealing elements...stained glass images, the Stations of the Cross statues, statues of Jesus, Mary and Joseph and various saints as well as the votive candle stands at side altars. Everywhere you look in the older Catholic churches, there's something visual to bring your attention to an aspect of faith.

I don't think most Protestants have any framework for understanding how important images are to being Catholic since images are so not important in Protestantism. It's kind of like trying to explain how much your family values family photographs to someone whose family didn't take pictures at every family gathering and carefully preserve them. They just don't get it and really can't understand why you value all these images so much.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:42 am

Dot, I really think its deeper than that-and don't call us Protestants-the Iconoclastic tradition predates the organized church-I think we are continuing the ban against images originally found in all three Abrahamic Faiths

and no, I can't explain why a tau T or a chi X or a chi rho XP is ok; but an actual cross is not
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:59 am

Davelaw wrote:Dot, I really think its deeper than that...the Iconoclastic tradition predates the organized church-I think we are continuing the ban against images originally found in all three Abrahamic Faiths

Oh, I don't deny that, Dave...and I agree that it's the main reason.

Obviously, my long-ago Catholic indoctrination still leads me to speak from a "fish-eater" viewpoint.

I've long had problems with forbidding the creation of images of God even though I understand the reasons for the prohibition. Such images were only human ideas of what God might look like, intended to make God more approachable so that it was easier for people to relate to Him. And there's the Catholic upbringing cropping out again...
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:01 am

and remember for us the "community of Saints" is every Christian now living; not the nebulous background of heroes of the faith
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:19 am

Davelaw wrote:and remember for us the "community of Saints" is every Christian now living; not the nebulous background of heroes of the faith

I was unclear. That understanding is part of the Catholic view as well. There are frequent reminders that the phrase within a Catholic context includes all Catholics living and dead and not just the acknowledged Saints.

I don't know...been years since I attended a Catholic church at all regularly, so the phrase probably is more inclusive today as your phrase "every Christian now living" indicates than it once was. When I was growing up, it generally meant only Catholics, past and present.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:23 am

not that different from our use of Christian being limited to "born again Christian"
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

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