'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

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'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Daldianus on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:28 am

Well done.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by MaineCaptain on Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:12 pm

isn't that interesting?

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Daldianus on Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:14 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:isn't that interesting?

yes. although I've known of somebody who had reproduced it quite well too a few years ago.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:35 pm

Hysterical
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:14 pm

Celsus wrote:Well done.

Mountains of evidence hasn't changed the mind of many theists (at least in the US) about the ToE; I wouldn't hold my breath on this...

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Daldianus on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:25 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Celsus wrote:Well done.

Mountains of evidence hasn't changed the mind of many theists (at least in the US) about the ToE; I wouldn't hold my breath on this...

Me neither. People usually are in love with their belief and don't give them up for rational reasons ... but it's one more fact they have to deny.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:31 pm

My mother said this before, "I've believed this way all my life and am not going to change now." I understand where she is coming from. The fear of what one has been under all their life (threat of hell) is tough to overcome.

As for this topic, I've never considered the shroud to be authentic.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:41 pm

DeavonReye wrote:My mother said this before, "I've believed this way all my life and am not going to change now." I understand where she is coming from. The fear of what one has been under all their life (threat of hell) is tough to overcome.

I recall being somewhat shocked when my stepgrandmother advised me years ago to pick a church where I liked most of the people who went there regularly. Ministers come and go, she said, and beliefs can be disregarded as one wishes, but it's the human relationships that make churchgoing worthwhile and the people devoted to the church that can be relied upon when you need help.

At the time, I found that a somewhat cynical view since I'd been brought up to think that what the church taught ought to be paramount. The older I get, though, the more I think she was onto something with that philosophy.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Vorrin on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:54 pm

I have never understood why these scientists are researching this. I mean who are the results for ?

Science ? Well most scientists I figure dont believe in Jesus much less that his body was somehow "burned" into this shroud. So not science.

Main Stream Religion ? Well . . . not them either. The faithful will believe what they find in their faith no matter what science proves.

Theology ? I suppose a good pragmatic theologist would wonder to the reasons one would fake such a thing.

The average non-believer ? Well . .. this isnt going to change any minds so its no more than a curiosity, hardly worthy of scientific review.

The Historians ? I suppose these guys are the only people really interested in this. To prove ancient artists had this ability and such.

I have always found that science has no business poking into religious matters. It's fairly pointless for me to waste my time proving or disproving a matter of faith which neither requires or needs proof. There is no need for the scientific method in religion, these are all matters of blind faith.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:20 pm

Vorrin wrote:I have never understood why these scientists are researching this. I mean who are the results for ?

Science ? Well most scientists I figure dont believe in Jesus much less that his body was somehow "burned" into this shroud. So not science.

Main Stream Religion ? Well . . . not them either. The faithful will believe what they find in their faith no matter what science proves.

Theology ? I suppose a good pragmatic theologist would wonder to the reasons one would fake such a thing.

The average non-believer ? Well . .. this isnt going to change any minds so its no more than a curiosity, hardly worthy of scientific review.

The Historians ? I suppose these guys are the only people really interested in this. To prove ancient artists had this ability and such.

I have always found that science has no business poking into religious matters. It's fairly pointless for me to waste my time proving or disproving a matter of faith which neither requires or needs proof. There is no need for the scientific method in religion, these are all matters of blind faith.

The pursuit of knowledge is its own reward, and people an draw which ever conclusions they want, I suppose.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by gillyflower on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:14 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:My mother said this before, "I've believed this way all my life and am not going to change now." I understand where she is coming from. The fear of what one has been under all their life (threat of hell) is tough to overcome.

I recall being somewhat shocked when my stepgrandmother advised me years ago to pick a church where I liked most of the people who went there regularly. Ministers come and go, she said, and beliefs can be disregarded as one wishes, but it's the human relationships that make churchgoing worthwhile and the people devoted to the church that can be relied upon when you need help.

At the time, I found that a somewhat cynical view since I'd been brought up to think that what the church taught ought to be paramount. The older I get, though, the more I think she was onto something with that philosophy.

I think she knew what she was talking about. I remember being shocked once by a minister. We were going to a church that my children and I liked quite a bit. We liked the classes and social stuff, and most of all the people. But we were moving, again. The minister pulled me aside before I left and told me to find a good church. I nodded and assured him we'd go to the Presbyterian church there in the new town. He said "No. I said find a good church." I think my mouth fell open at that point. But I knew what he meant and my, my respect for him soared.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by gillyflower on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:24 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Vorrin wrote:I have never understood why these scientists are researching this. I mean who are the results for ?

Science ? Well most scientists I figure dont believe in Jesus much less that his body was somehow "burned" into this shroud. So not science.

Main Stream Religion ? Well . . . not them either. The faithful will believe what they find in their faith no matter what science proves.

Theology ? I suppose a good pragmatic theologist would wonder to the reasons one would fake such a thing.

The average non-believer ? Well . .. this isnt going to change any minds so its no more than a curiosity, hardly worthy of scientific review.

The Historians ? I suppose these guys are the only people really interested in this. To prove ancient artists had this ability and such.

I have always found that science has no business poking into religious matters. It's fairly pointless for me to waste my time proving or disproving a matter of faith which neither requires or needs proof. There is no need for the scientific method in religion, these are all matters of blind faith.

The pursuit of knowledge is its own reward, and people an draw which ever conclusions they want, I suppose.

It's pure curiosity, at least it is for me. My beliefs don't hinge on a religious artifact being real and I hope that no one else's does either. There have been in many religions and at many different periods, a brisk business in religious souvenirs, most made to turn a buck. People like to collect things, they always have, and then impress their neighbors with them. It doesn't really matter if they are what they say they are or not.

Every once in a while something comes along however that people think can't be duplicated. It's a puzzle. I like seeing how it was done. That doesn't mean it has to stop meaning what it means to someone else. That's their business.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:37 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote: Clipped...

The pursuit of knowledge is its own reward, and people an draw which ever conclusions they want, I suppose.

It's pure curiosity, at least it is for me. My beliefs don't hinge on a religious artifact being real and I hope that no one else's does either. There have been in many religions and at many different periods, a brisk business in religious souvenirs, most made to turn a buck. People like to collect things, they always have, and then impress their neighbors with them. It doesn't really matter if they are what they say they are or not.

Every once in a while something comes along however that people think can't be duplicated. It's a puzzle. I like seeing how it was done. That doesn't mean it has to stop meaning what it means to someone else. That's their business.

I can understand why people want evidence to support their beliefs; for all their talk of "faith" and the "mysteries of God", I have never met a Christian who would not want to objectively prove that the Biblical account of events is correct and their beliefs are objectively true. Some already do just that; by appealing to "artifacts" like the Shroud of Turrin, hunks of the "original cross", pieces of "Noah's arc" or other "evidence" found through Biblical archeology. ID's sole purpose is to show that the "hand of the Creator" is visible in every aspect of life, thus "proving" his existence.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by gillyflower on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:57 pm

I wonder if it is all that. Many people think the holy objects have special supernatural powers. If you read much, you find that people make the pilgrimages in order to get healed or for this or that reason from this or that holy artifact. The Christians aren't alone in that. If you pray it is all in your head but touching something, that gives a person real satisfaction and you can hope that it will heal you or whatever. It's a physical link to the supernatural powers. I don't think that is so different from magical charms, really.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by MaineCaptain on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:06 pm

Yes Gilly I agree with that. I think you are right on there

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:03 pm

as Christian evangelical iconoclast- I don't get the Shroud-even if it were what it has been claimed to be -its an idol-it diverts attention from the only true source worthy of attention
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by gillyflower on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:06 pm

So's the cross a idol. Do you have one?

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:10 pm

nope


I wish i could persuade all to think like me; but i'm in the minority
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by gillyflower on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:32 pm

Good going, Dave, you are among the minority going by the Evangelicals I know. I consider bibles to be idols too. It is adored, usually blindly and excessively, and therefore fits the definition.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:55 pm

Damn it I lost my freaking post!
When I was stationed in Italy my 1st husband & I went to party in Turin Italy, for the weekend! Great place, fun things to do, fantastic ruins, good food & drink, great plays! While there we went to view the Shroud also. Man made or not. Real or Fake, Truth, or Facade? A shroud of beauty & mystery? Yes. May you go on pilgrimages to circles, pyramids, walls, stones, waterfalls, mountains, churches, synagogue, or mosques etc. Spiritual vacations for the soul.
Fast forward to nowadays, the glitz & the glimmer... May you take a physical vacation to the Rockies to go hiking or skiing, Bermuda for the sun & water, Europe for ruins & great foods, Australia for the mystery of the continent itself. LA to shop, Alaska for sights, or Wyoming to hunt.
Ah man without these places of interest & intrigue our body, mind, & spirit would be left longing for what brings us joy.
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:11 am

gillyflower wrote:Good going, Dave, you are among the minority going by the Evangelicals I know. I consider bibles to be idols too. It is adored, usually blindly and excessively, and therefore fits the definition.

its NOT idolatry to adore the Words of your lover
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:13 am

now if you are talking Joel Osteen followers-who hold their Bibles up and recite rhymes to them but never actually read them to see whats inside-I might concede your point
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by Davelaw on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:17 am

Willowcreek70633 wrote:Damn it I lost my freaking post!
When I was stationed in Italy my 1st husband & I went to party in Turin Italy, for the weekend! Great place, fun things to do, fantastic ruins, good food & drink, great plays! While there we went to view the Shroud also. Man made or not. Real or Fake, Truth, or Facade? A shroud of beauty & mystery? Yes. May you go on pilgrimages to circles, pyramids, walls, stones, waterfalls, mountains, churches, synagogue, or mosques etc. Spiritual vacations for the soul.
Fast forward to nowadays, the glitz & the glimmer... May you take a physical vacation to the Rockies to go hiking or skiing, Bermuda for the sun & water, Europe for ruins & great foods, Australia for the mystery of the continent itself. LA to shop, Alaska for sights, or Wyoming to hunt.
Ah man without these places of interest & intrigue our body, mind, & spirit would be left longing for what brings us joy.

I had a sense of wonder when standing on top of the great pyramid at Chitzen Itza; but it wasn't the awe of worship or the wonder of the Grand Canyon
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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by gillyflower on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:39 am

That just stands to reason, doesn't it? Each has different gods of place.

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Re: 'The Shroud' reproduced using medieval technique

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:09 am

Part of some people's mythos. Do they necessarily believe all the claims made about it? Not always. Sometimes things like the shroud are a way to express the beliefs over all.

Joseph Campbell defined myth as a way of talking about that which can't be talked about. That which is missed the moment one tries to talk about it. Perhaps, for some, the shroud expresses that mythos.

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