God Violating Free Will

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Davelaw on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:44 pm

just lost mine as well Sad
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Davelaw on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:47 pm

gillyflower wrote:
jumbojava wrote:
gillyflower wrote: What does your own experience say?
That there is something wrong with Christianity.

Well, then doesn't it make sense for you to look elsewhere for your answers? If the answers make sense then perhaps you have found the religion for you.

let me try again

I think she has gone elsewhere and is relatively happy but can not escape the ripple effects of Xianity (family, co-workers etc...)

I don't mind her venting or even using me to vent on-we Christians have a lot to answer for-no reason to compound the offense
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:08 pm

gillyflower wrote:Well, then doesn't it make sense for you to look elsewhere for your answers? If the answers make sense then perhaps you have found the religion for you.

DotNotInOz wrote:Then isn't the logical next step to find beliefs that agree with your understanding rather than railing against Christianity which you appear to have determined cannot?

Seems to me that looking for its flaws is rather a waste of time that could be better spent investigating other beliefs in hopes of finding some that suit you.

Just my view...perhaps worth far less than two cents. :::: shrugs :::::

It's a bit different than that.

I dont ask so I can find a religion. I ask as to understand a religion that is simply in my experiences is so... wrong.



I have been aware of and connected to the Divine since before my first breath. I was born with this connectedness/knowingness/awareness (there isnt a word to properly define what I feel). THis connection was simply THERE.

I had no need to question it. I had no need to seek answers to it. This conncectedness/knowingness/awareness was and is simply a part of who and what I am. I understood it without words, without having to question it, without having to explain it. I understand it as All and Everything and Everyone has this same conncectedness/knowingness/awareness. It simply IS.

I was a child when I knew this.

When I went out into the world (school mostly) I was absoluely shocked and confused to realize that many could not remember this simple truth. I was baffled by their apparent amnesia of their conncectedness/knowingness/awareness of the Divine. I was blindsided by thier rage, pain and guilt, how they threw this... anguish... at me. Being around them hurt me. Me being around them somehow aggitated them and they attacked me.

I was stunned, I was confused and I recoiled. What had happened to them to have them so completly forget who and what they are???

One day I stumbled upon a bible. And there it was: the smoking gun. I found this gun had a name: CHRISTIANITY. The reason why they all believed they were not connected with the Divine: they were TAUGHT they were not connected.

AND THEY BELIEVED THIS!!!!

How could they belive such nonsense? Such falseness?

Now, I knew that wasnt the only gun. There were many. But all came for the same sense of panic, of fear, of loneliness. And guilt. In short all of them taught them the same thing: that it was their fault that they were not connected with god. They were taught that they were BORN guilty. That they were somehow NOT GOOD ENOUGH to have what I knew we already had: a inate conncectedness/knowingness/awareness of the Divine, of God. It got worse, they were taught taht they all DESERVED to be disconnected from God just for being born.

Wtf???

As I read further it taught more obsenities; that the Divine kills. That god hated. And the most obsured obsenity: that God would take his rage out upon ALL who did not worship it!

That you would go to HELL.

For a split second this terror gripped me. For a split second I almost forgot the conncectedness/knowingness/awareness with the Divine and I started to become afraid that I was just like them!

But I snapped out of it and slammed the book shut. I understood then how easy it was to be brainwashed and some of why others seemed to be in so much pain.

I was eight years old.


Ever since then I sought to understand this bizzare faith and why it teaches so much.... pain... and disconnectedness. My questions of Christianty are NOT because I seek a faith or path to the Divine. Why seek a conncectedness/knowingness/awareness of the Divine when I was already born with one? No. My querries are an attempt to understand why some people seem absolutely convinced that they DO NOT have something that they are born with.

It still baffles me.

And I still seek to understand this seemingly sad state of beingness being taught, this spiritual silliness one must feel they HAVE to belive befor God will love them fully. I seek to understand it for it causes much pain to so many.

THAT is why I question. That is why I ask. That is why I seek to understand Christianity and any other faith that teaches seperateness.

Does that help in your understanding of where I come from? Of why I ask? Of why I see so much pain in others?

I seek to understand why so many feel they do NOT have what they already have: A unique and profoundly mindboggling conncectedness/knowingness/awareness of the Divine.


I am a bit frustrated -and sad- right now for I cannot find the words I am looking for to convey the pain and sadness I see in so many and why they embrace such a pitiful view of themselves and the Divine.

Anyhoo, I gotta get ready to go to work...

Be the Peace,

~jj
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:25 pm

Davelaw wrote:I think she has gone elsewhere and is relatively happy but can not escape the ripple effects of Xianity (family, co-workers etc...)

Fairly correct.


I don't mind her venting or even using me to vent on-we Christians have a lot to answer for-no reason to compound the offense

Thanx, Dave.

For the record: I dont blame or dislike you. I do view you as a dear friend.

Hope you view me that way too...



~jj
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Davelaw on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:32 pm

there have been a couple times when I gritted my teeth because your view so different from mine; but overall viva le dfifference
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by gillyflower on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:40 pm

I just think you ought to understand, Jumbo, that just because a religion doesn't suit you, that doesn't mean that it won't suit others. You can't change them to see the world and their religion the way you do and they can't change you to see the world and their religion the way they do. That's because we are all different. Frankly, I don't see the god Yahweh the way you do because I have met him as one god among many. The Divine is something else, in my experience. I'm quite happy with my relationship to my gods, the Divine and the people who follow different gods or no god. Teh crazy isn't really dependent upon a certain religion, I don't think.

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:18 am

I think Dave characterizes your distress, Jumbojava, much as I would when he remarked that you and he differ somewhat in your perceptions of what constitutes divinity.

When you say,
I have been aware of and connected to the Divine since before my first breath. I was born with this connectedness/knowingness/awareness (there isnt a word to properly define what I feel). THis connection was simply THERE.

I had no need to question it. I had no need to seek answers to it. This conncectedness/knowingness/awareness was and is simply a part of who and what I am. I understood it without words, without having to question it, without having to explain it. I understand it as All and Everything and Everyone has this same conncectedness/knowingness/awareness. It simply IS.

I was a child when I knew this.

When I went out into the world (school mostly) I was absoluely shocked and confused to realize that many could not remember this simple truth. [emphasis added]

I hope you'll pardon my bluntness, but when you say "simple truth," how do you know that your perception reflects universal truth that is somehow not understood by everyone?

There's a reason, it seems to me, why Alcoholics Anonymous refers to "the God of one's understanding." It seems to me more than somewhat arrogant--even though I myself have on occasion been guilty of this very thing--to pronounce someone else's spirituality inferior to one's own.

Perhaps you and I can only "agree to disagree," Jumbojava.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:55 am

DotNotInOz wrote:I hope you'll pardon my bluntness, but when you say "simple truth," how do you know that your perception reflects universal truth that is somehow not understood by everyone?
I can only go with what I feel to be true.

As to why others dont see the same I feel is part of the human experience.


There's a reason, it seems to me, why Alcoholics Anonymous refers to "the God of one's understanding." It seems to me more than somewhat arrogant--even though I myself have on occasion been guilty of this very thing--to pronounce someone else's spirituality inferior to one's own.
Which happens to also be my main issue with Christianity....


Perhaps you and I can only "agree to disagree," Jumbojava.
That would indeed appear to be the only course of action left to take.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:08 pm

jumbojava. . . . I know what you are saying (and I'm glad IE didn't loose your long post again). I share your opinion on some of the things you stated about christainity. There really ARE some awful things in there. . . sad things. . . . and things that make you wonder how people could openly and honestly accept and embrace it.

Here's my thoughts on it. When you are born into it [christianity], you are ingrained with its teachings and when you are raised with the "children's story version" of many of the stories, you loose the objectivity of what actually happened in the story. The "Noah flood" becomes "childrenized" with fanciful pictures that you color, or something along those lines, and when you grow up, it no longer hits you like those outside of the religion. As well, preaching on such stories is "fluffy", or leaves out some of the parts that make you say, "hmmm?" But then, it is pounded into the hearts and minds that you are "a no good filthy sinner, deserving of an everlasting punishment for even performing one act of sin, . . . because God is SO holy and can't abide to be in sin." You FEAR of hell and the affects of it, so you do whatever you can to keep from that fate.

For me, recently, I have begun to look at it another way. Where I used to see "the hebrew god" being responsible for the deaths and immoral actions, . . . I now see it as the writings of bronze age, primative people who made up their own laws (even the ridiculous and immoral) and claimed it was given of god. They conquered lands and killed and enslaved of their own doing, claiming it was ordered by god. They were a ethnocentristic culture with a huge god delusion that they were special, . . . better than others. They fabricated stories to make their their god both glorious and formittable. In reality, there WAS no "global flood", . . . no "destruction of Sodom and Gommorah", no god asking fathers to "sacrifice their son" as some sort of test, and no deal made with Jephthah to "sacrifice what first came out of his house after his military victory", which was his daughter (which god would have been aware of). I came to the realization that these stories were just that. Stories. No god commanded the horrifying acts. . . .they were done by a culture who lived in barbaric and primative days.

At the most, the gods were probably just greatly saddened by all the stupidity they brought (not just the hebrews, but many other cultures as well). I have a feeling that they would rather "ignore" those types and commune with those with good spirits.

jumbojava, I have [unfortunately] not had your insites or feelings that you have felt all your life for the divine. I am a bit envious. I would focus more on that and put christianity on your mental back burner.
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