God Violating Free Will

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God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:41 pm

I thought hit me today (and I got the bruises to prove it) about the concept of the Christian god's promise to not interfere with man's free will.

The premise is that a person is living a life of free will. I'll call this a free will life (free range life?). If a person is living a free will life then thusly thier death will ALSO be the result of living a free will life; wether if be of old age or disease, accidents, murders, war, suicide or natural disasters, etc; ALL are outcomes of a free will life.

Now, In the bible there are many stories of god killing folks for all sorts of offenses. Some estimated around 33 million were killed. And here is where it gets interesting.

My thought is that the Christian god purposely causing the death someone's life is a intentional violation of the free will of that person.

God purposely causing the death of a person is an INTENTIONAL violation their free will for they did NOT die as the outcome of living a free will life.

Again: The Christian god intentionaly interfered with a human life to cause their death.

Maybe I am missing something here but that sure seems like blatant violation of free will by god to me.

There are all kinds of stories whee some folk and god had an agreement that if the humans broke the rules then god has the right to snuff them out. Yet there are many more stories of god causing the death of countless others who did not make such an agreement and were still killed. (IE: babies drowned or ordered exterminated, folks from other lands wiped out to make room for god's favorite pet humans, etc, etc).

At what point is god crossing the free will line?

Thoughts?
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:31 am

jumbojava wrote:I thought hit me today (and I got the bruises to prove it) about the concept of the Christian god's promise to not interfere with man's free will.

The premise is that a person is living a life of free will. I'll call this a free will life (free range life?). If a person is living a free will life then thusly thier death will ALSO be the result of living a free will life; wether if be of old age or disease, accidents, murders, war, suicide or natural disasters, etc; ALL are outcomes of a free will life.

Now, In the bible there are many stories of god killing folks for all sorts of offenses. Some estimated around 33 million were killed. And here is where it gets interesting.

My thought is that the Christian god purposely causing the death someone's life is a intentional violation of the free will of that person.

God purposely causing the death of a person is an INTENTIONAL violation their free will for they did NOT die as the outcome of living a free will life.

Again: The Christian god intentionaly interfered with a human life to cause their death.

Maybe I am missing something here but that sure seems like blatant violation of free will by god to me.

There are all kinds of stories whee some folk and god had an agreement that if the humans broke the rules then god has the right to snuff them out. Yet there are many more stories of god causing the death of countless others who did not make such an agreement and were still killed. (IE: babies drowned or ordered exterminated, folks from other lands wiped out to make room for god's favorite pet humans, etc, etc).

At what point is god crossing the free will line?

Thoughts?

The answer I would expect would involve the issue of being in violation of the law, which of course gets back to one of the central tennants of Christian theology, that because of original sin, everything which follows is man's own doing. Those tribes which did not have a covenant were not exempt, ignorance of the law is no excuse, especially to an arbiter who is above reproach. As the "wages of sin are death" all death is a result of sin, and thus a result of free will.

That would be my understanding of the theological reasoning... I could be wrong, you may want to wait for a Christian to respond

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by TPaine on Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:07 am

Any way you explain it, it still sounds like something Mao Zedong or Pol Pot would make up.
Numbers 31:13-18 (New International Version)

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Is God an evil mass murder, or are the people who wrote the books using God as a scapegoat for their own sins? Which makes the most sense?
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by gillyflower on Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:38 am

Surely it is not making their god the scapegoat as much as justifying their own horrific acts? Just look at the bottom line. They may blame the women but the boys have done nothing. What they are doing here is collecting themselves a breeding herd of slave girls.

The message I get is that the winners, be it Romans or Hebrews, do horrible things no matter what gods they follow. Plus civilians aren't shy about ordering the men in their armies to do things that they might be too squeamish to do themselves and wouldn't want to happen to them or their families.

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by gillyflower on Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:16 am

The thing that worries and bothers me is that every person or group of people (except ones that are into self-responsibility) come up with a way to justify their bad acts, that's just human nature. From the man who hits his wife and tells her that she made him do it to Hitler and his keeping the race pure. It is easy enough for us normal people to look at it and call it bs - why is it so difficult to read it in a religion's holy writings and not see it that way?

It seems to me that many people shift the blame to the god (and endlessly discuss what the god is all about) when they would and should be pointing their finger at the ones who did it and discussing what they are all about.

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:59 am

The thing that gets me is the whole going to hell for failure to worship this god business. It suggests that this god actually OWNS your soul.

If this is indeed the case then free will does not exist.

If I truly have free will then I should ALSO have the choice to go to spend eternity with the god I choose to worship.

Since I have the free will to choose NOT worship the Christian god then I should NOT have to spend eternity in ITS heaven or hell.

I either have free will or I am ownd by the Christian god.

Which is it.....?
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:29 am

Well, I must say that I've moved to a point that I no longer care to debate about Christianity. I'm just over it.

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by gillyflower on Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:31 pm

Me, too. In my one brush with him, he wasn't that interested.

Jumbo, why not ask the god your questions?

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:05 pm

jumbojava wrote:The thing that gets me is the whole going to hell for failure to worship this god business. It suggests that this god actually OWNS your soul.

If this is indeed the case then free will does not exist.

If I truly have free will then I should ALSO have the choice to go to spend eternity with the god I choose to worship.

Since I have the free will to choose NOT worship the Christian god then I should NOT have to spend eternity in ITS heaven or hell.

I either have free will or I am ownd by the Christian god.

Which is it.....?

I keep hearing that; but the scriptures only mention Hell and Judgment in connection with unrighteousness and also seem to point out that those who publicly worship God may NOT be the righteous.


another thot: we may have possession of our souls ; but not the titles
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:14 pm

gillyflower wrote:Me, too. In my one brush with him, he wasn't that interested.

Jumbo, why not ask the god your questions?

I wasn't trying to be cunty... but I've spent too many years being bitter and I guess now I've just mellowed out and it doesn't concern me that much anymore.

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by TPaine on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:21 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Well, I must say that I've moved to a point that I no longer care to debate about Christianity. I'm just over it.
I know how you feel, TED. I still hang in there to counteract Nancy NoJoy. I sure as hell don't want lurkers reading that Christian Identity shit and thinking it makes sense. I also fight the theocrats that want to make the US a "Christian Nation." By that I mean their fundamentalist, evangelical concept of Christianity. For instance:
"We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe." -- Gary Bauer: Longtime president of the Family Research Council; current president of American Values; US Presidential candidate, 2000; hard-core pro-family, homophobic (etc.) Christian Conservative of a most extremist variety
IMO, it's up to parents to teach their children what to believe, not Gary Bauer, the FRC, the damn government schools, or anyone else. Yeah, I'll keep fighting.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:23 am

Davelaw wrote:I keep hearing that; but the scriptures only mention Hell and Judgment in connection with unrighteousness and also seem to point out that those who publicly worship God may NOT be the righteous.


another thot: we may have possession of our souls ; but not the titles
If god still owns us then free will is more like free range. We are nothing more than cattle.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:44 am

The simplest explanation, IMO, is that all god concepts are human ideas and understandings and thus flawed and contradictory.

Maybe there is "something" out there somewhere. If there is, its true nature is likely far beyond our present understanding.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by gillyflower on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:08 am

That is a good theory when you do not believe that you have met a being that you would call a god. The simplest explanation to me, coming from the point of view of someone who has, is that the only knowledge that one can trust is the knowledge that one gains from direct experience with a god or gods. It is when one is told to trust someone else's messages and ideas of gods above or in place of your own that trouble evolves, because other less trustworthy snake oil salesmen or politicians might attribute their own agenda to the god or gods without any checks or balances. We've all experienced what that leads to.

I think Dot is right in that the gods cannot be fully comprehended by our race, just as dogs cannot fully comprehend cats or humans and we can't fully comprehend them. We can study how they interact with us, that's all.

I think that this "owning" business is political and there only being one god is contrary to my experience while free will, in my experience, exists. But don't take my word for it! What does your own experience say?

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:46 am

gillyflower wrote: What does your own experience say?
That there is something wrong with Christianity.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Davelaw on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:16 am

jumbojava wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I keep hearing that; but the scriptures only mention Hell and Judgment in connection with unrighteousness and also seem to point out that those who publicly worship God may NOT be the righteous.


another thot: we may have possession of our souls ; but not the titles
If god still owns us then free will is more like free range. We are nothing more than cattle.

Have we not had this very discussion before? cattle, lab rats, special ed children-take your pick


but lets look at lab rats for a second-they are free to choose what direction they travel within the maze, and the speed at which they journey-but they had no choice in being in the maze-however, the experimenter doesn't control the free will within the maze-thats the very thing that is being studied
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Chokmah on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:18 am

Davelaw wrote:
jumbojava wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I keep hearing that; but the scriptures only mention Hell and Judgment in connection with unrighteousness and also seem to point out that those who publicly worship God may NOT be the righteous.


another thot: we may have possession of our souls ; but not the titles
If god still owns us then free will is more like free range. We are nothing more than cattle.

Have we not had this very discussion before? cattle, lab rats, special ed children-take your pick


but lets look at lab rats for a second-they are free to choose what direction they travel within the maze, and the speed at which they journey-but they had no choice in being in the maze-however, the experimenter doesn't control the free will within the maze-thats the very thing that is being studied



Playthings of the gods....
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by Davelaw on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:19 am

or benefactors of benign guardianship
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:24 am

Davelaw wrote:
jumbojava wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I keep hearing that; but the scriptures only mention Hell and Judgment in connection with unrighteousness and also seem to point out that those who publicly worship God may NOT be the righteous.


another thot: we may have possession of our souls ; but not the titles
If god still owns us then free will is more like free range. We are nothing more than cattle.

Have we not had this very discussion before? cattle, lab rats, special ed children-take your pick


but lets look at lab rats for a second-they are free to choose what direction they travel within the maze, and the speed at which they journey-but they had no choice in being in the maze-however, the experimenter doesn't control the free will within the maze-thats the very thing that is being studied

The experimentor owns the maze and the rats. Free will is more like free range. The Christian god still owns the soul. You are not truly free. You were just let out to play in the yard to your hearts content. But once the fun is over and you are called back to the barn the Christian god decides if he wants you as a pet in his house or sends you to the slaughter house.

I may have the illusion of freedom to worship the deities of my faith but once I die does the Christian god let me go to be with my deities?

No. He rips me away and either insists I worship him or go to hell.

I never realy was truly free. I was just let loose on the prairie to play until I was rounded up and sorted either into a prized keeper specimen or dicarded to be ground into hamburger.

That is not free will.

That is free range.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:32 am

Davelaw wrote:or benefactors of benign guardianship
Or a puppy mill.....
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:48 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Have we not had this very discussion before? cattle, lab rats, special ed children-take your pick.

Yes we have.

And, Dave, bless your heart.

In our many years of going around and round you have shown me nothing but patience and kindness. I respect that. Truly. You've never once blew your cork and told me to stfu. And you sure have the right to do so.

You've tried countless times to convey the joy and enrichment that your faith gives you. And I respect that. Your confiction and strength I find admirable and worthy of respect.

I, however,have a whole slew of issues with Christianity. From its very core concepts, to the threats of hell, to the estimated 33 million deaths caused by the Chrisiant god, to the promise of it to return and destroy the world and all things non-Christian, to how mainstream Christianty seems to actively preach to not give non-Christians the same respect and courtesy, and well, just about eveything else with Christianity.

In short, my issue with the faith is that I simple see it as wrong.

I clashes horribly with my own experiences with the Divine and all I've seen and understand. IMO too much of the Christian faith is based on fear and paranoia. For me to embrace Christianity would require me to dump all I know as truth to become something of a highly paranoid and superstitious cavewoman. It would be a gigantic step in reverse for me. It would not enrich me but make me very sad. It would not fullfill my life but make me long for death to be free of the burden of living.

Christianity does not encourage me. It does not heal me. It does not sooth me.

Christianity depresses me. Christianity disturbs me. I find the Christian faith much too sad. Much too.... wrong.


I know Dave that you simply dont agree with me and I'm okay with that.

But I can never be a Christian. Just too much..... saddness.

Sorry.


~jj
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by gillyflower on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:56 pm

jumbojava wrote:
gillyflower wrote: What does your own experience say?
That there is something wrong with Christianity.

Well, then doesn't it make sense for you to look elsewhere for your answers? If the answers make sense then perhaps you have found the religion for you.

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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:03 pm

jumbojava wrote:
gillyflower wrote: What does your own experience say?
That there is something wrong with Christianity.

Then isn't the logical next step to find beliefs that agree with your understanding rather than railing against Christianity which you appear to have determined cannot?

Seems to me that looking for its flaws is rather a waste of time that could be better spent investigating other beliefs in hopes of finding some that suit you.

Just my view...perhaps worth far less than two cents. :::: shrugs :::::
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:05 pm

GMTA, Gilly, and only minutes apart.
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Re: God Violating Free Will

Post by jumbojava on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:32 pm

I had a nice long post and I LOST IT.

Damn IE.....

Gonna try agian....
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