Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:14 pm

It isn't that. I will be blunt out of respect for you. We have had a number of posters in the past who embed links in order to drive up the traffic at their blogs. They are not interested in discussions but lecturing an audience. You are an intriguing individual in that you seem to want to discuss in this forum with others and you also frequently want us to go offsite to read a lecture by you. I don't know if you have noticed but you might not get many takers for that.

Could you sum up how you define faith, please? in a sentence or two?


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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:22 pm

gillyflower wrote:It isn't that. I will be blunt out of respect for you. We have had a number of posters in the past who embed links in order to drive up the traffic at their blogs. They are not interested in discussions but lecturing an audience. You are an intriguing individual in that you seem to want to discuss in this forum with others and you also frequently want us to go offsite to read a lecture by you. I don't know if you have noticed but you might not get many takers for that.

Could you sum up how you define faith, please? in a sentence or two?


I am not here to just send a few people to my website as I am getting plenty of traffic otherwise.

However, if I have a particular point already laid out in detail that was brought up to me why not send them there. I would have to think that isn't too much of a burden and if you don't care of my definition then don't bother reading it. I already gave a couple line definition and that was not enough so I directed whomever would care to the more detailed explanation. If you don't like my response, or the way I will response, then please don't ask.

Why is everyone here, it seems, so afraid to have more in depth conversations and so freaked out by anyone asking questions with some knowledge. So many times I've been attacked personally instead of actually discussing the topic at hand. It says a lot more about the people who are doing this far more than I it would seem.

So... if it is not too much of a burden to click on a very related link that was basically asked of me then don't trouble yourself.

Do I really need to cut and paste... really?

Who do you all actually talk to?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:28 pm

I am "freaked out" or in my own terminology "turned off" by you wanting to lecture an audience. This isn't a college class and you aren't a professor. So far you are the one who doesn't want to discus. You just say ah ha! I've prepared a lecture for that! Go read it.

I'd like to talk to you. Would you feel more comfortable if we exchange lectures?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:39 pm

gillyflower wrote:I am "freaked out" or in my own terminology "turned off" by you wanting to lecture an audience. This isn't a college class and you aren't a professor. So far you are the one who doesn't want to discus. You just say ah ha! I've prepared a lecture for that! Go read it.

I'd like to talk to you. Would you feel more comfortable if we exchange lectures?

What am I lecturing about? I've not lectured about anything but do have a educated opinion and don't know what that would be so threatening.

No it isn't a college course but it is a 'debate' and 'discussion' forum... right? Or is it simply a lets all make each other feel special forum?
If you don't like my response then either don't read it and/or don't respond. Isn't that fair? Apparently you are used to sheep who are doe eyed and I am not and have thoughts but mostly we don't talk about that we talk about who I am which you no very little about.

I wrote a brief idea of my view on faith and I believe it was you who asked more detail so I offered it. If it is too much that is fine as it isn't for others but you don't have to act like I am being whatever you think I am because a few hundred word blog is too much for you.

Whatever you think I am is really a projection of yourself right now.

If you ever desire I am more than willing to have whatever meaningful discussion you desire but if you feel that I should just stoke your ego and maintain shallow philosophical discussions one of us is in the wrong place.

I will not apologize for having a thought and in all this time of you crying about reading what you asked me for you could have read it and we could have a intelligent discussion but instead this happens.

I really liked where we were going when we started this conversation but it really seems as though you are threatened and I must wonder why.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:57 pm

I've scrolled back and I simply cannot find your definition of faith. I asked you to define it as you are using it in a sentence or two. I never asked you for more than that. If you don't want to do that, it is hard, you see, to discuss something when you are using non-traditional definitions for words as I suspect is happening.

I will not respond to the rest of your post.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:05 am

Why must I define what you want the exact way you want in a short dictionary type format?

Should all my thoughts be traditional? Why so?

Have you bothered to read my thoughts on this subject and if so what do you have trouble with? No... you have not but demand I play by your rules... Must you always be in control?

I'm glad you won't bother to address the rest of the post as that is probably best.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:15 am

I wrote my lecture about use of words in the other thread.

No, your thoughts do not have to be traditional to your family or culture but if you wish to be understood here, you must use words in traditional ways or define them so others can understand you.

I am not going to go to your site until you start discussing it with us here. What would you like to discuss?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:18 am

Just saw the time, I will be turning in now, so we will have to continue this tomorrow. Smile

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:32 am

gillyflower wrote:I wrote my lecture about use of words in the other thread.

No, your thoughts do not have to be traditional to your family or culture but if you wish to be understood here, you must use words in traditional ways or define them so others can understand you.

I am not going to go to your site until you start discussing it with us here. What would you like to discuss?

I have been discussing it here and I don't care if you go to my other site or not and you don't have to try and find excuses to rationalize. If we must find common terms why must it be your way and not somewhere in the middle? You have no idea what my definition is as the laborious effort of clicking on the direct link to my crystal clear thoughts on the subject makes you feel like you are losing control of something. The more we talk the more it is seeming pretty obvious you are seriously a control freak... you are going to be a lot of fun.

Good Night:)
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:49 am

Yet ANOTHER spammer who simply wants to drive traffic to his website.

That is why you need to define it HERE, because some will never click your links. I don't trust you. You are disrespectful and NOT a person who can be trusted. Your failure to admit you made insinuations about others when you were too ignorant (or dumb) to remember where you posted has shown you to be untrustworthy.
You want to make a point...Make it here because you are not a person to be trusted.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:56 am

tmarie64 wrote:Yet ANOTHER spammer who simply wants to drive traffic to his website.

That is why you need to define it HERE, because some will never click your links. I don't trust you. You are disrespectful and NOT a person who can be trusted. Your failure to admit you made insinuations about others when you were too ignorant (or dumb) to remember where you posted has shown you to be untrustworthy.
You want to make a point...Make it here because you are not a person to be trusted.

BS I have been here and posted many times and trying to have a real conversation. I have sent links to completely related topics and usually only upon a related request. If you all can't handle someone with half a brain it is really sad.

Why am I not to be trusted? Who are you?

Seriously what is it with you all... Stop crying already and actually be willing to have an intelligent conversation.

This is growing very sad very quickly

Oh wait does being a 'spammer' to you having an intelligent point? If I just wrote about a subject like a day ago and direct a link to it does not make me a spammer. Get a life and attempt to contribute something of value.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:59 am

I am one of the managers that YOU ACCUSED. So, until you admit you were wrong, and TOO DUMB to remember where you frickin' posted or how to find your posts... You are unworthy of having your links to your blowhard, bullshit, spammy site followed.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:01 am

You may call US "dumb". But WE know how to remember where we posted. AND we admit when we make mistakes.

So, really who's the dumb one here?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by Beribee on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:13 am

gillyflower wrote: Sak, Tina, Beribee - Christians and others - understand and respect that. They have very deep faith, and because of that deep faith they leave me and my path to their or my gods.
Thanks for your kind words, Gilly!

Okay...this is a first for me...jumping into a debate, so go easy on me! LOL

SW, it appears to me that you are actually defining "blind faith" versus what others here might define faith to be. Blind faith to me is faith based solely on what one was raised in...never questioning, never looking outside the box. My question is this: can you truly describe faith in that limited definition? My faith goes WAY beyond what I was raised in. I love to discuss other people's faiths. (As many of my friends here will acknowledge, I used to spend lots and lots of time on the Pagan boards on another forum....asking lots and lots of questions!) I find earth-based religions and shamanism fascinating. So while I may have a "very deep faith" as Gilly says, I am very willing to discuss others beliefs and faiths with them, because, who knows.....maybe I'll learn something! (I cannot believe that I am the first Christian to be willing to do this with you!?!)

So, SW, let's start fresh. As a Christian woman of faith whose spiritual path consists of learning as much as she can and incorporating whatever makes sense to her into her beliefs, what would you like to discuss? Understand this, though, I will not defend my beliefs.....merely discuss them and try to learn as much as possible about yours. Fair? (Obviously, I'm not very good at debating and this conversation should probably be in Discuss Christianity not Debate Christianity....maybe we'll move it later?! LOL)

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by Beribee on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:14 am

Wow...while I was typing, you guys really went at it!!! Yikes....I'm going to bed...will check in again tomorrow!

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by John T Mainer on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:22 am

Might I suggest this thread has wandered far enough off topic and into personal disputes as to be better locked? Rather than lose people fighting over worthless ground, let us simply move to more productive discussions and begin again from a civil standpoint.

I am not a mod on this board, so that is a suggestion and not a lockdown command.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:44 am

I think Baribee brought us back on track. Why don't we try again? We could discuss blind faith as opposed to - I hate to say real faith! - a less limited view. How does one make that step?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:30 am

Gilly...good terms "blind" and "real".
Blind faith is something I think those in the "Creation is IT and evolution doesn't exist" crowd have.
Real faith is what the people who think like me believe... "Yes, I believe God exists. I ALSO believe evolution is real. I SEE where evolution has occurred."

I just can't understand how people DON'T see the logic of evolution. Look at us! We're all colors, shapes and sizes. Middle eastern desert dwellers are darker than Europeans, Africans are much darker than Arabs. That is proof that humans evolved. Chimpanzee DNA is something like 97-99% identical to human. How can someone NOT believe we might be evolved from apes?

Real faith (for lack of a better term) involves faith that God has made us smart enough to figure out our world. NOW if he'd just make us smart enough to save it.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by Davelaw on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:59 am

tmarie64 wrote:Gilly...good terms "blind" and "real".
Blind faith is something I think those in the "Creation is IT and evolution doesn't exist" crowd have.
Real faith is what the people who think like me believe... "Yes, I believe God exists. I ALSO believe evolution is real. I SEE where evolution has occurred."

I just can't understand how people DON'T see the logic of evolution. Look at us! We're all colors, shapes and sizes. Middle eastern desert dwellers are darker than Europeans, Africans are much darker than Arabs. That is proof that humans evolved. Chimpanzee DNA is something like 97-99% identical to human. How can someone NOT believe we might be evolved from apes?

Real faith (for lack of a better term) involves faith that God has made us smart enough to figure out our world. NOW if he'd just make us smart enough to save it.

It is evidence we evolved- NOT proof
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by ZenYen on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:00 am

I think there is a difference between faith that is based on zero evidence, faith that is based on subjective evidence and faith based on objective evidence (the kind you can actually demonstrate to other observers).

If someone refers to Gillyflower's faith in her gods as a blind faith, for instance, I think that's missing the mark. (Forgive me for using you as an example here, Gilly, and swat me if I mess it up.) Gillyflower asserts that she has met her gods, that they have found her. That's an experience, and it's evidence that is sufficient for her. I would not, then, consider her faith to be "blind" or "without evidence." I would not try to negate her experience, either, because she had it and I didn't. How the heck would I know what transpired between Gilly and her gods? I wasn't there.

Now, if Gillyflower wanted to convince me to drop my own path and follow hers, her evidence would not suffice. Her evidence is subjective; it is sufficient for her because she experienced it. She could describe her encounters with gods to me, but I've never encountered gods as far as I know and I know there are things like delusions and hallucinations and waking dreams and hazy memories, etc., that might account for her experience. Her god experiences might be genuine, they might fall into one of those other categories -- without objective evidence or such an experience myself, I could not really decide one way or the other. So I would enjoy her descriptions of her encounters, be happy that she is happy and ponder how big and weird the universe really is.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by ZenYen on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:05 am

Davelaw wrote:
tmarie64 wrote:Gilly...good terms "blind" and "real".
Blind faith is something I think those in the "Creation is IT and evolution doesn't exist" crowd have.
Real faith is what the people who think like me believe... "Yes, I believe God exists. I ALSO believe evolution is real. I SEE where evolution has occurred."

I just can't understand how people DON'T see the logic of evolution. Look at us! We're all colors, shapes and sizes. Middle eastern desert dwellers are darker than Europeans, Africans are much darker than Arabs. That is proof that humans evolved. Chimpanzee DNA is something like 97-99% identical to human. How can someone NOT believe we might be evolved from apes?

Real faith (for lack of a better term) involves faith that God has made us smart enough to figure out our world. NOW if he'd just make us smart enough to save it.

It is evidence we evolved- NOT proof

Yes, it is merely evidence, not proof. You have to add it in with all the other evidence -- which is abundant -- and then you have something approaching proof. Of course, in science, you always leave room for new evidence or data to enhance understanding, and if evidence ever shows evolution didn't happen, then scientists will abandon the theory and adopt one in accordance with the evidence.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by John T Mainer on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:19 am

ZenYen wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
tmarie64 wrote:Gilly...good terms "blind" and "real".
Blind faith is something I think those in the "Creation is IT and evolution doesn't exist" crowd have.
Real faith is what the people who think like me believe... "Yes, I believe God exists. I ALSO believe evolution is real. I SEE where evolution has occurred."

I just can't understand how people DON'T see the logic of evolution. Look at us! We're all colors, shapes and sizes. Middle eastern desert dwellers are darker than Europeans, Africans are much darker than Arabs. That is proof that humans evolved. Chimpanzee DNA is something like 97-99% identical to human. How can someone NOT believe we might be evolved from apes?

Real faith (for lack of a better term) involves faith that God has made us smart enough to figure out our world. NOW if he'd just make us smart enough to save it.

It is evidence we evolved- NOT proof

Yes, it is merely evidence, not proof. You have to add it in with all the other evidence -- which is abundant -- and then you have something approaching proof. Of course, in science, you always leave room for new evidence or data to enhance understanding, and if evidence ever shows evolution didn't happen, then scientists will abandon the theory and adopt one in accordance with the evidence.

We actually abandonned Darwin pretty early. He postulated gradual constant change adapting to the environment, suggesting a directionality to evolution and a drive to improve. Intellectualy satisfying, but demonstrably false. Evolution isn't about better, its about worst. Worst dies, everything else passes on. Worst is a today thing; what worked yesterday will not necessarily hold for tomorrow, and only those options that survived today will be available for future challenges. Rather than slow stately progress, each disaster that causes a catastrophic die off will shift the surviving population to a new mix of mutations and establish a new species standard, or divide the species along multiple successful strategems. It is not a stately flow, but a drunken lurch through time. Inelegant, and utterly unfocused. It's shotgun approach to development is like brute force hacking; it will find a right answer eventually, as long as it has time for almost infinite attempts. Some species just don't have time enough to find a right answer.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by ZenYen on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:35 am

John T Mainer wrote:
ZenYen wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
tmarie64 wrote:Gilly...good terms "blind" and "real".
Blind faith is something I think those in the "Creation is IT and evolution doesn't exist" crowd have.
Real faith is what the people who think like me believe... "Yes, I believe God exists. I ALSO believe evolution is real. I SEE where evolution has occurred."

I just can't understand how people DON'T see the logic of evolution. Look at us! We're all colors, shapes and sizes. Middle eastern desert dwellers are darker than Europeans, Africans are much darker than Arabs. That is proof that humans evolved. Chimpanzee DNA is something like 97-99% identical to human. How can someone NOT believe we might be evolved from apes?

Real faith (for lack of a better term) involves faith that God has made us smart enough to figure out our world. NOW if he'd just make us smart enough to save it.

It is evidence we evolved- NOT proof

Yes, it is merely evidence, not proof. You have to add it in with all the other evidence -- which is abundant -- and then you have something approaching proof. Of course, in science, you always leave room for new evidence or data to enhance understanding, and if evidence ever shows evolution didn't happen, then scientists will abandon the theory and adopt one in accordance with the evidence.

We actually abandonned Darwin pretty early. He postulated gradual constant change adapting to the environment, suggesting a directionality to evolution and a drive to improve. Intellectualy satisfying, but demonstrably false. Evolution isn't about better, its about worst. Worst dies, everything else passes on. Worst is a today thing; what worked yesterday will not necessarily hold for tomorrow, and only those options that survived today will be available for future challenges. Rather than slow stately progress, each disaster that causes a catastrophic die off will shift the surviving population to a new mix of mutations and establish a new species standard, or divide the species along multiple successful strategems. It is not a stately flow, but a drunken lurch through time. Inelegant, and utterly unfocused. It's shotgun approach to development is like brute force hacking; it will find a right answer eventually, as long as it has time for almost infinite attempts. Some species just don't have time enough to find a right answer.

Well stated (and I think we've just kind of hijacked the thread! My apologies for my role in that hijacking.)
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:27 am

I agree with what ZenYen stated about faith. I was in the christian faith for many years. I had never experienced a personal encounter, . . . . so in reality, my "faith" was a "blind faith". A person who actually DOES have an experience isn't the same. They may have misunderstood the experience as something it actually wasn't, but if they believe it to be what they claim it to be, . . . that would be a "misguided faith". If they had an exprience and didn't misunderstand what was happening, then their experience would constitute an actual faith in what they DID experience. . . . . . . . . Now, in my opinion, . . . if someone experiences a direct, undoubtable interaction with gods, and on a normal basis, . . . I can't call that "faith", but knowledge. That is where I would like to be. I am interested in finding out the TRUTH [even if it is just for me]. My "christian faith" was empty because it had no weight of experience. If that is all I have for the rest of my life, then I will continue to call myself agnostic.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by ZenYen on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:30 am

DeavonReye wrote:I agree with what ZenYen stated about faith. I was in the christian faith for many years. I had never experienced a personal encounter, . . . . so in reality, my "faith" was a "blind faith". A person who actually DOES have an experience isn't the same. They may have misunderstood the experience as something it actually wasn't, but if they believe it to be what they claim it to be, . . . that would be a "misguided faith". If they had an exprience and didn't misunderstand what was happening, then their experience would constitute an actual faith in what they DID experience. . . . . . . . . Now, in my opinion, . . . if someone experiences a direct, undoubtable interaction with gods, and on a normal basis, . . . I can't call that "faith", but knowledge. That is where I would like to be. I am interested in finding out the TRUTH [even if it is just for me]. My "christian faith" was empty because it had no weight of experience. If that is all I have for the rest of my life, then I will continue to call myself agnostic.

Well stated. One of the things I find appealing about zen is that it is very much an experiential path. I put great stock in experience. Good luck on your road, DeavonReye.
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