Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by TPaine on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:48 am

If music is important, the UU has very basic clips (maybe a piano or guitar) of their music at the following Link
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:01 pm

I don't have a lot of fellowship at my church. It is so large, and so clicked out, that I basically show up, play my instrument (bass) then leave. There is rarely any fellowship. So, the music is why I'm there, . . . that and they need musicians, and I don't want to leave them "high and dry".

But yeah, the UU church, in my city, has very meager music. The Methodist church seems very conservative as well. Hymns are definitely NOT my thing. My church has been doing music such as you'd find from the Hillsong Australia and London churches. Very musical, upbeat, contemporary.

gilly, I hear what you're saying, about the lyrics, and thinking of your own dieties. I COULD do that, if I had active ones in my life. My church wants us to be active when we play, including singing, so I sing the words but don't take them to heart anymore. They also have a prayer time before, . . . and I usually just stare at the floor. Sometimes I feel like a hypocrit for even being there, . . . and if they knew where I was, . . . they would not be pleased. I don't openly act like things are normal, so at least I'm not putting on a face, "pretend praying", "expounding upon the greatness of God", etc. . . . I just play my part, . . . literally.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:10 pm

I know this is going to sound perhaps ridiculous, but maybe for the music you could find band in your area that plays similar music.

Then when you eventually leave the Church, you can take the Music with you so to speak. And when you find a church that suits you that might not have good music you have not lost out.

We actually have travelling Musicians that travel around to different churches through out the US. They actually get paid a small fee to come and play at the various churches and they are from all over the country. When I was going to church with a girl friend, on two separate occasions they had a family of musician/singers come to visit.

Maybe you could do that in your area? Who knows you might become famous Smile

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Yeah, I gotta agree, Deavon, that UU churches vary widely in the quality of the music. Quite a few are mediocre at best in that regard.

I was rather put off the last time I attended the UU church I've been going to since moving here by the choice of "But Beautiful" made by the guest choir which was performing that Sunday. Granted, "But Beautiful" is a terrific love song but scarcely appropriate for a church service I thought. Guess I'm getting starchy in my old age, but I think that a song about a couple feeling more eros than agape doesn't belong in a church service.

Perhaps you'll end up doing what an acquaintance of mine where we used to live did. She was a vocal music major, a Pagan, but a paid soloist at an Episcopal church that had the resources to hire instrumentalists and vocalists.

Is there a United Church of Christ church nearby? They tend to value good music from what I've heard and, like the UU's, don't demand any profession of faith or belief. "Jesus as metaphor" is generally their mode.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:19 pm

I'll check and see. As long as they do some pretty contemporary stuff, I'd be good.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:03 pm

Another idea I had, You know if you find a Church and you like their basic message and you like the people, perhaps you yourself could encourage the direction of the music they play.

What they have now, (whomever) may not be great, but with your influence Deavon, you might be able to make it spectacular

Just a thought

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:10 pm

That's a great idea, MC.

Many churches would be thrilled beyond measure to have a professional musician willing to select more appealing music. Ya never know. There might be someone in the choir with whom you can make beautiful music, too. Wink
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:12 pm

very good Dot Smile

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:39 am

. . . yeah, . . the only "beautiful music" will be, . . . . . well, just music. But thanks for the vote of confidence.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:28 am

DeavonReye wrote:I'm on another forum, a Christian one, . . . and I always am amazed that, when I don't agree with their position, I am attacked personally. I find it funny that, because a person doesn't automatically agree with a position that has NO evidence, and requires you to have faith in THEIR beliefs, . . . when you don't, then you are "just here to cause trouble".

It seems like such tactics are amongst the weakest debating tactics ever!

This relates rather well.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:37 am

That's a good one, SW. I've seen it. Covers the issue quite well, I thought.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:09 am

DeavonReye wrote:I'm on another forum, a Christian one, . . . and I always am amazed that, when I don't agree with their position, I am attacked personally. I find it funny that, because a person doesn't automatically agree with a position that has NO evidence, and requires you to have faith in THEIR beliefs, . . . when you don't, then you are "just here to cause trouble".

It seems like such tactics are amongst the weakest debating tactics ever!

Just yesterday I've written a blog that relates exactly to this issue of FAITH. I have found that if you try and have a rational discussion with anyone who's foundation for truth is based upon faith there is little point in bothering going much further. These same people tend to present themselves as being very open minded but it only applies to if it supports what they already believe in because they are convinced they have all the answers and any questions come across as threatening. While everyone is very welcome to opinions is everyone entitled to their own facts?

The other thing I find all too often is that the most self proclaimed pious have never read the bible cover to cover (Yes I have a few times and many parts several times) and yet consider it the source of God's word. One would think that if this is THAT important that reading it would be a natural assumption.

On another note I think the worst thing that ever has happened to the bible are the numbering of the Chapters and Verses. While convenient for reference all too often people will read only a verse or few verses then link them with others and then others to make some sort of out of context point. If there were no verses people would have to actually read the entire Chapter and actually learn the nature of the context it was written in which is always critical in understanding its actual meaning.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by Sakhaiva on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:48 pm

[quote="silverswhispers"]
DeavonReye wrote:I have found that if you try and have a rational discussion with anyone who's foundation for truth is based upon faith there is little point in bothering going much further. These same people tend to present themselves as being very open minded but it only applies to if it supports what they already believe in because they are convinced they have all the answers and any questions come across as threatening. While everyone is very welcome to opinions is everyone entitled to their own facts?

Open-mindedness, where communication is concerned, is a two way street. So is respect.

Why would you even think about beginning a conversation with someone whose position you will, in the end, refuse to respect?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:50 pm

[quote="Sakhaiva"]
silverswhispers wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:I have found that if you try and have a rational discussion with anyone who's foundation for truth is based upon faith there is little point in bothering going much further. These same people tend to present themselves as being very open minded but it only applies to if it supports what they already believe in because they are convinced they have all the answers and any questions come across as threatening. While everyone is very welcome to opinions is everyone entitled to their own facts?

Open-mindedness, where communication is concerned, is a two way street. So is respect.

Why would you even think about beginning a conversation with someone whose position you will, in the end, refuse to respect?


I'm not sure where you are going with your comment.
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by Sakhaiva on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:05 pm

In reading your post, one line stuck out more than the rest; I'll tease it out so we can reread it:

I have found that if you try and have a rational discussion with anyone who's foundation for truth is based upon faith there is little point in bothering going much further.

Why do you make the generalization that people with faith lack the ability to have a rational discussion?

Or is there compassion for others behind those words that did not come through?





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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:15 pm

Sakhaiva wrote:In reading your post, one line stuck out more than the rest; I'll tease it out so we can reread it:

I have found that if you try and have a rational discussion with anyone who's foundation for truth is based upon faith there is little point in bothering going much further.

Why do you make the generalization that people with faith lack the ability to have a rational discussion?

Or is there compassion for others behind those words that did not come through?


I would disagree that it is a generalization but rather just expressing my direct experience. I've certainly attempted but in every case if your foundation of truth is simply faith then how can you have a rational debate? I'm sure it is possible but I've simply not encountered it and with all due respect perhaps I am mistaken but it seems like chasing a rainbow.

I would love to have a rational discussion with anyone and everyone but once more if your base of foundation cannot be question with reasonable questions without supporting your views with nothing more then you believe because you believe there is little point.

My experiences have been 100% as I've described so it may seem like a generalization but the conclusion is based upon ample direct experience.

Am I mistaken in my assumption?




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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:26 pm

As for your generalization... "Ample" experience? You've talked to even 2% of the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people of faith????

Well, speaking as a person of faith... I may be irrational but I am grown enough to admit when I make a mistake and apologize if I accuse wrongly.
So, mr. rationality, I guess I've got one up on you.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:04 pm

tmarie64 wrote:As for your generalization... "Ample" experience? You've talked to even 2% of the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people of faith????

Well, speaking as a person of faith... I may be irrational but I am grown enough to admit when I make a mistake and apologize if I accuse wrongly.
So, mr. rationality, I guess I've got one up on you.

How many times do I need to touch fire before I realize that it will burn me? As noted I said that based upon all of my experiences this has been the case and with your focus on this comment I suspect you are also a person who has a foundation of beliefs based upon faith so what should I take from that? Also, when I say ample experience with talking people who found their beliefs I do mean ample so while you presume once more, even upon clarification, that I am generalizing I must high light once more that I've found it to be a moot conversations literally hundreds of times. Can you prove me wrong? Please do so... I would love it.

What exactly do you have 'up' on me and what game are we playing? You know very little of my beliefs, thoughts and ideas and you are presuming you know who I am and what I am thinking when you clearly do not. You've not proven your perspective in any way but in many ways it would seem that you've only supported mine.

Thankx
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:24 pm

Silverwhispers, I don't know how you are defining faith, to be honest. Please define it for me.

I, too, as a pagan would have to say in answer to why I believe, that it makes sense to me and because of my own UPGs. I think attacks are made by people of a certain personality. Sak, Tina, Beribee - Christians and others - understand and respect that. They have very deep faith, and because of that deep faith they leave me and my path to their or my gods.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:28 pm

gillyflower wrote:Silverwhispers, I don't know how you are defining faith, to be honest. Please define it for me.

I, too, as a pagan would have to say in answer to why I believe, that it makes sense to me and because of my own UPGs. I think attacks are made by people of a certain personality. Sak, Tina, Beribee - Christians and others - understand and respect that. They have very deep faith, and because of that deep faith they leave me and my path to their or my gods.

Very fair question and on this link is exactly how I define faith and what I mean.
Silverswhispers Definition of Faith
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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by John T Mainer on Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:59 pm

silverswhispers wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Silverwhispers, I don't know how you are defining faith, to be honest. Please define it for me.

I, too, as a pagan would have to say in answer to why I believe, that it makes sense to me and because of my own UPGs. I think attacks are made by people of a certain personality. Sak, Tina, Beribee - Christians and others - understand and respect that. They have very deep faith, and because of that deep faith they leave me and my path to their or my gods.

Very fair question and on this link is exactly how I define faith and what I mean.
Silverswhispers Definition of Faith

Good thing you don't write dictionaries. If defining a simple word like faith requires that amount of verbiage, I don't think all the Microsoft servers together could handle your version of a grade school dictionary.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:09 pm

John T Mainer wrote:
silverswhispers wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Silverwhispers, I don't know how you are defining faith, to be honest. Please define it for me.

I, too, as a pagan would have to say in answer to why I believe, that it makes sense to me and because of my own UPGs. I think attacks are made by people of a certain personality. Sak, Tina, Beribee - Christians and others - understand and respect that. They have very deep faith, and because of that deep faith they leave me and my path to their or my gods.

Very fair question and on this link is exactly how I define faith and what I mean.
Silverswhispers Definition of Faith

Good thing you don't write dictionaries. If defining a simple word like faith requires that amount of verbiage, I don't think all the Microsoft servers together could handle your version of a grade school dictionary.

Am I supposed to be impressed or humbled with this comment. I am sorry if it was too much for you to understand and I wasn't trying to fit it in a dictionary. Is that where you learn about your beliefs? Interesting that you have nothing of value to suggest or comment so you simply find it acceptable to attempt to insult me... how sad and pathetic.

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:14 pm

It isn't that. I will be blunt out of respect for you. We have had a number of posters in the past who embed links in order to drive up the traffic at their blogs. They are not interested in discussions but lecturing an audience. You are an intriguing individual in that you seem to want to discuss in this forum with others and you also frequently want us to go offsite to read a lecture by you. I don't know if you have noticed but you might not get many takers for that.

Could you sum up how you define faith, please? in a sentence or two?


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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by silverswhispers on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:22 pm

gillyflower wrote:It isn't that. I will be blunt out of respect for you. We have had a number of posters in the past who embed links in order to drive up the traffic at their blogs. They are not interested in discussions but lecturing an audience. You are an intriguing individual in that you seem to want to discuss in this forum with others and you also frequently want us to go offsite to read a lecture by you. I don't know if you have noticed but you might not get many takers for that.

Could you sum up how you define faith, please? in a sentence or two?


I am not here to just send a few people to my website as I am getting plenty of traffic otherwise.

However, if I have a particular point already laid out in detail that was brought up to me why not send them there. I would have to think that isn't too much of a burden and if you don't care of my definition then don't bother reading it. I already gave a couple line definition and that was not enough so I directed whomever would care to the more detailed explanation. If you don't like my response, or the way I will response, then please don't ask.

Why is everyone here, it seems, so afraid to have more in depth conversations and so freaked out by anyone asking questions with some knowledge. So many times I've been attacked personally instead of actually discussing the topic at hand. It says a lot more about the people who are doing this far more than I it would seem.

So... if it is not too much of a burden to click on a very related link that was basically asked of me then don't trouble yourself.

Do I really need to cut and paste... really?

Who do you all actually talk to?

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Re: Personal attacks by christians, when you don't believe?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:28 pm

I am "freaked out" or in my own terminology "turned off" by you wanting to lecture an audience. This isn't a college class and you aren't a professor. So far you are the one who doesn't want to discus. You just say ah ha! I've prepared a lecture for that! Go read it.

I'd like to talk to you. Would you feel more comfortable if we exchange lectures?

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