The mentality of "banning"

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The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:02 pm

This has come up on several threads, in several different guises (mostly dealing with firearms). We all have things that we are against, and as such would never do. We may disagree on those things, and if recent events hold true, we likely do. It's a free country, we have a right to disagree, no matter how wrong and silly we think each other are.

What I don't understand is the idea of "banning". We might despise something, and on moral/ethical grounds not even consider it for ourselves, but why does that translate into the concept that no one else should be able to do it either? Which is basically what is said when a ban is suggested.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by mlarue75 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:07 pm

I guess it's a question of what harm it could do to allow the given item or activity. I think sometimes people go too far.

I like the idea of banning dog poop in public parks and in playgrounds. But I don't suppose you were talking about that.

How about the flip side of the question, such as mandating seat belts?
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:30 pm

mlarue75 wrote:I guess it's a question of what harm it could do to allow the given item or activity. I think sometimes people go too far.

I agree. I think sometimes people get worked up about a perception of harm that is unrealistic. What is the real danger ect.

mlarue75 wrote:
I like the idea of banning dog poop in public parks and in playgrounds. But I don't suppose you were talking about that.

No, I wasn't but it does fall under the banner that I am talking about. In my mind, I think it would be smarter to require people to simply clean up the poop. I guess that would fall under your next topic.


mlarue75 wrote:
How about the flip side of the question, such as mandating seat belts?

I think it can get carried to far as well. I'm of a mixed mind about the seat belt issue. On one hand, even as contrary as I am, I never go anywhere in a vehicle without putting on my seat belt. It's just habit. But even though I agree with the idea that seat belts should always be worn, I don't know about the idea of mandating them. I do think that people should want to wear them, making a mandate un-necessary, but the idea that everyone is going to agree with me is a pipe dream that I long since have given up on. I think I'd have to come down on the side of a persons right to be horribly disfigured and crippled for life if that is what they want.

You brought up dog poop, and that issue illustrates the ban/mandate mentality that we seem to have in this country pretty well.

The main issue is that dog poop is not wanted in parks/playgrounds. You can mandate that people clean up their dog poop. Which we all know isn't going to happen 100% of the time. You can ban dogs from the area. Which isn't going to keep all critters that poop out. Even if wild animals could read, I bet they wouldn't care what the sign said, or, you can just go ahead and pick up the poop yourself if it bothers you that much.

I do believe that everyone who has a dog should be responsible and clean up after it in public areas at least.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:36 pm

Humans have throuhgout theirt history placed taboo's, restrictions and proscriptions on any number of items, activities and even beliefs. The concept is that by limiting items/actions/beliefs which are considered harmful, society will progress or maintain equilibrium.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:43 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Humans have throuhgout theirt history placed taboo's, restrictions and proscriptions on any number of items, activities and even beliefs. The concept is that by limiting items/actions/beliefs which are considered harmful, society will progress or maintain equilibrium.

Yes they have, but there is a difference between a taboo, ect, and the government stepping in and legislating conforming behaviors. Say what you will about societies actions on certain topics, when a real "taboo" was set in place, it was because pretty much everyone agreed. Mandating and banning can be about topics that a relative minority is squeamish about.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:54 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Humans have throuhgout theirt history placed taboo's, restrictions and proscriptions on any number of items, activities and even beliefs. The concept is that by limiting items/actions/beliefs which are considered harmful, society will progress or maintain equilibrium.

Yes they have, but there is a difference between a taboo, ect, and the government stepping in and legislating conforming behaviors. Say what you will about societies actions on certain topics, when a real "taboo" was set in place, it was because pretty much everyone agreed. Mandating and banning can be about topics that a relative minority is squeamish about.

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Absolutely true, and frankly outright bans in most developed countires is nigh impossible to enforce, even in genuine police states, like East Germany with the Stasi, people were still able to do a lot of illegal and prohibited things.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by mlarue75 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:55 pm

No way am I gonna pick up someone else's dog poop. But yes, you're right, it's not a ban but a requirement that people have to clean up after their dogs. I think it's less an aesthetic issue than a health issue, since little kids (toddlers usually) can get really sick by handling it or eating it. You know that age when they'll put ANYTHING into their mouths.

The seatbelt issue, if I recall correctly, is not whether someone has a right to be maimed for life but rather the extra time and expense for emergency vehicles, ambulance medical care etc., due to the added injuries in an accident when a seatbelt is not worn. These costs are paid for by the taxpayers -- at least in Virginia where I recently had an accident.

Any other examples?
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:08 pm

mlarue75 wrote:No way am I gonna pick up someone else's dog poop. But yes, you're right, it's not a ban but a requirement that people have to clean up after their dogs. I think it's less an aesthetic issue than a health issue, since little kids (toddlers usually) can get really sick by handling it or eating it. You know that age when they'll put ANYTHING into their mouths.

LOL! Yes, I understand all to well. I really think this is an issue where people should want to do what is right. I'm not sure we can make a law that makes people want to do what is right.


mlarue75 wrote:
The seatbelt issue, if I recall correctly, is not whether someone has a right to be maimed for life but rather the extra time and expense for emergency vehicles, ambulance medical care etc., due to the added injuries in an accident when a seatbelt is not worn. These costs are paid for by the taxpayers -- at least in Virginia where I recently had an accident.

I agree. I was using hyperbole to prove a point again. Bad all. I need to stop that.

This brings up an interesting point in light of some of the discussions of socialized medicine that we have been having. What happens then if all costs are already paid by the tax payers? What other activities might be banned, or safety equipment mandated to save state costs?


mlarue75 wrote:
Any other examples?

You're just dying for me to bring it up, aren't ya?
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by mlarue75 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:12 pm

OK, here's one I understand but it drives me crazy. I'm a teacher. The rule is, "Never touch a kid." Well, I do. I think most of us do. Not very often, but sometimes I will touch a kid lightly on the upper arm to get his/her attention, when the kid can't hear me for whatever reason. I have even (horrors!) hugged a few kids - though I always let them initiate the hug. How can you refuse to hug a kid who's hugging you? Oh, I know the lawsuits we could get and why they're telling us not to touch the kids, but it seems such a shame. Some schools even have rules that kids can't touch each other. Fortunately mine is not one of them.
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by mlarue75 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:13 pm

Oh all right. I think we should ban sex. That will save LOTS of money on OB-GYNs, nurses, maternity wards, and schools! Of course we'll have to employ the doctors, nurses, teachers etc. who are laid off.....
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:19 pm

I do kind of understand, but like many other bans, that one only serves to make normal people worried and uncomfortable. The people who are the reason for that ban would walk right through it like there was nothing there.

Of course it becomes a bit of a catch-22. If you come out against it, you make people wonder why you want to touch the kids.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:21 pm

mlarue75 wrote:Oh all right. I think we should ban sex. That will save LOTS of money on OB-GYNs, nurses, maternity wards, and schools! Of course we'll have to employ the doctors, nurses, teachers etc. who are laid off.....

See, there are pro's and con's for everything!

Ok, I started this topic because I wanted to gain an understanding of the position of banning things, firearms specifically. What purpose do the people who want to ban all guns, I know there is at least one of you, have for doing so?

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by mlarue75 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:25 pm

OK sorry I am not one of those people. I do not hunt but I know hunters and respect them. Not being a vegetarian I have no personal aversion to it and I am fond of venison when I can get it.

I do however think people should not be allowed to go into a store and buy (for example) an assault weapon. The military does enough damage with those things, without us civilians getting our hands on them.

Was that what you meant?


Last edited by mlarue75 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : bad graamar)
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:31 pm

No, I think it was warlord who said that he was in favor of a blanket ban. People should know that I'm not going to hold anything against them, I just don't understand this topic.

I know John and I are going to disagree on this, we already have, but the definition that I use for "assault weapons" is already illegal.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by wmdkitty on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:27 pm

I wasn't thinking of gun control, I was thinking of Prohibition and the "War on Drugs".

I don't care for guns, have no desire to be anywhere near one, and am extremely nervous about people who are gung-ho "yay, guns!" (Like my ex.)

I understand the concept of hunting down your own food, and understand that a gun might be necessary for that. But I don't think that J. Random Citizen should be able to, on a whim, buy a gun; and under no circumstances should children be exposed to firearms until they are old enough and mature enough to understand that guns kill, and are not toys. (TBH, I'm not sure most adults are mature enough to understand that!)
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:39 pm

[quote="WMDKitty"]I wasn't thinking of gun control, I was thinking of Prohibition and the "War on Drugs".


That is another interesting topic. Prohibition was an example of one of the great banning failures, and IMO the "war on drugs" is a smokescreen.

[quote="WMDKitty"]
I don't care for guns, have no desire to be anywhere near one, and am extremely nervous about people who are gung-ho "yay, guns!" (Like my ex.)

I understand the concept of hunting down your own food, and understand that a gun might be necessary for that. But I don't think that J. Random Citizen should be able to, on a whim, buy a gun; and under no circumstances should children be exposed to firearms until they are old enough and mature enough to understand that guns kill, and are not toys. (TBH, I'm not sure most adults are mature enough to understand that!)

There are a lot of complex issues there. First, I need to point out, that with few exceptions, you can't just go out and buy a gun on a whim. I understand the need (I agree with this part) to keep felons from getting firearms, but for the most part the waiting period is just a hassle.

Secondly, individuals under 18 are not allowed to purchase a firearm, individuals under 21 are not allowed to purchase a handgun, and if you are under 12 you cannot obtain a hunting license, and even after 12 yoa you need to demonstrate proof that you have taken a hunters education course.

Also, I agree that I'm not sure most adults understand the safe handling of, safe storage of, and safe use of, firearms. We could argue the semantics of the guns don't kill, people kill, guns just help them do it, but I think that we probably understand each other. The problem is, at what age are kids mature enough?

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by wmdkitty on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:42 pm

Like I said, most ADULTS aren't mature enough to comprehend the lethal power of a firearm.

Therein lies the problem -- how do you test for maturity?
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:45 pm

WMDKitty wrote:Like I said, most ADULTS aren't mature enough to comprehend the lethal power of a firearm.

Therein lies the problem -- how do you test for maturity?

Give them guns, lock them in a cubicle, and see if they make it out a week later?

I honestly don't think I was mature enough until I was about 30.

But that's just me.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:01 pm

Most adults aren't mature enough to drive; and they fly down highways at you in bullets made of steel at 70 and 80 miles per hour. I also find most adults shouldn't be parents.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by wmdkitty on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:02 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Most adults aren't mature enough to drive; and they fly down highways at you in bullets made of steel at 70 and 80 miles per hour. I also find most adults shouldn't be parents.

Yeah, this is true, too.
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:08 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Most adults aren't mature enough to drive; and they fly down highways at you in bullets made of steel at 70 and 80 miles per hour. I also find most adults shouldn't be parents.

I can't tell ya the number of times that I almost killed myself, my friends, and a few innocent bystanders as well.

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by MaineCaptain on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:34 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Most adults aren't mature enough to drive; and they fly down highways at you in bullets made of steel at 70 and 80 miles per hour. I also find most adults shouldn't be parents.
Funny you should say that, this is the line of thinking I have been pondering on lately.

People should not be able to have pets or children without inspection. Now we need to find intelligent mature people to do the inspections Rolling Eyes

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:36 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:
TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Most adults aren't mature enough to drive; and they fly down highways at you in bullets made of steel at 70 and 80 miles per hour. I also find most adults shouldn't be parents.
Funny you should say that, this is the line of thinking I have been pondering on lately.

People should not be able to have pets or children without inspection. Now we need to find intelligent mature people to do the inspections Rolling Eyes

And that is how the human species went extinct!

Laughing
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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:46 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:No, I think it was warlord who said that he was in favor of a blanket ban. People should know that I'm not going to hold anything against them, I just don't understand this topic.

No! We can't ban blankets! I get cold way to easily!!!! Blow Up Suspect Whistling NahNah Clap Zipaway

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Re: The mentality of "banning"

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:49 pm

You'll let them have your blanket when they pry it out of your cold fingers?

Very Happy

Don't worry, I will stand behind your right to keep and bear blankets, just not bear blankets, I might have an issue with that.

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