Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:27 pm

@DeavonReye wrote:Yes, . . . I have seen your signature before, . . .and found it to be a good one! Wink

That signature makes a very important point that most Christians would scoff at (meaning they allow their indoctrination to cloud what is being said). They would consider it "the doctrine of devils".

Hmmm, funny...I am a Christian, and I like her signature. A sort of 'Pascal's wager'. And what's even more 'strange', I agree with it. So do most of my Christian friends, to an extent. So, the 'doctrine of devils' is not something most Christians think...maybe the more fundamentalist or conservative ones do, of which I used to be, but not even those would be as nasty as to put it in those terms. .
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by John T Mainer on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:14 pm

@TPaine wrote:
@DeavonReye wrote:No, . . . on christianforums dot net.

I like to go shake things up a bit. Get a load of this guys next post to me:

Nope. He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked, and He wants everyone to be saved. But, due to Original Sin and its resulting actions, no one wants to choose God. Everyone has betrayed a good God. Here's more bad news: Every single person who has ever lived deserves to burn in hell for ever and ever. The reason: no one is good; everyone sins. So God chooses a man to make his nation on Earth (Abram). Note that he didn't pick some other guy (perhaps in Egypt). Why? Because it was his plan. God does everything in accordance with his perfect will. You've got to realize that salvation is for the glory of God, not for the glory of man. So God saved who he wanted to save for His glory. The rest..well, He let them do what they wanted to do. And I'm afraid their destination is Hell.
I can't figure out the justification for Original Sin. According to the myth, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The serpent told Eve to go ahead and do it, so she did, then shared it with Adam. Ok, where is the sin? Until she ate the fruit she had no conception of good and evil (right and wrong) so she had no way of knowing that disobeying God was wrong. If there was no intent to sin, there was no crime.
The Calvinist concept of God, IMO, is that of an evil, ego-maniacal, deity who has only disdain for the beings he created. He sees them only as a means to increase his own self-glorification.

That's easy. Without knowledge of good and evil they simply obeyed Yaweh and never questioned. After eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, how could rebellion not inevitably follow when so many of the actions demanded by Yaweh are unquestionably evil and sadistic? Knowing that only as long as his slaves were ignorant of the morality of his actions could they serve him without reservation, such an uncaring diety could not help but forbid his slaves an internal moral compass that would rail at such things as the slaughter of sleeping newborn children, the sacrifice of your own child, and genocide of whole peoples whose only crime was living someplace when Yaweh decided the land needed stealing.

The unforgivable sin is doubt. Kill and rape, sure he can forgive that, but don't question, ever.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:03 am

@Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:
Hmmm, funny...I am a Christian, and I like her signature. .....maybe the more fundamentalist or conservative ones do, of which I used to be, but not even those would be as nasty as to put it in those terms. .

Yes, . . . I was speaking of the more conservative/fundamentalistic type of Christian, of which I know well. Smile

Hey, John, . . .that was an interesting thought. "God wanting to keep his "slaves" from having a moral compass that would question his actions".
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:29 am

Deavon, You could always say the bible god put the tree there because the other gods insisted, to give humans a fighting chance to protect themselves from the slave keeper, who would have kept them ignorant.

I know I think naught things Very Happy

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:54 am

Interesting, . . . a kind of "ultimatum, or there could be trouble", sort of thing. Suspect
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:34 pm

I kind of thought you might be referring to a certain subset, but it might helpful to state so, for future reference. I'm just saying. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive today, though.

I question constantly, sometimes too much. I am still a Christian but not quite as conservative as I used to be.

I know the type well and have been hurt by some of them. But there are good conservative Christians out there...davelaw, for example. Smile You'll find good and bad in any group, I think. I wish I could say I've only been in the former category, but that would be a lie...
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:19 pm

BD I hope you never take offense at anything I might say. If so please forgive me. And let me know if I ever do, so I can apologize. Very Happy

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:50 pm

I know you don't mean offense...and I'm sure you don't either, Deavon, but I didn't know you, so I wasn't sure how to read things. But knowing the company we keep on these boards, we're all a bit nuts, so all's fair in love and...kitty litter. I don't know. I just don't like war. Smile
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by AutumnalTone on Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:20 pm

I think the tale of the Garden of Eden is one of the loss of innocence. Adam and Eve were as the rest of the animals of creation--incapable of evil action, as they lacked moral awareness. The lion is not evil in killing the lamb, simply hungry. The wolves are not evil in their predations, just surviving.

At the point that human intelligence progressed to where moral reasoning was possible--and the ability to act purely out of self-interest knowing that it would be detrimental to another person (or the group) is the point when humans became capable of knowing Good and Evil.

The tale describes that point in human history. Of course, it gets painted in the colors of later humans according to the particular agendas the editors pursue. When later editors help drive the dysfunctions of their cultures (likely to preserve temporal power of some sort), then weird interpretations of events get passed along. Note that the interpretations of Christians differ from those of Jews in interesting fashions.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:57 am

BD, . . . it is insensitive for me to include ALL Christian sects into that which I've only known, . . . the purely fundamentalistic doctrinal ideologies. I used to be fully into that way of thinking. I'm no longer "in that number" now, though, . . . . . . .

SC, you are right. It seems that each sect of Abrahamic religions have differing takes on the story. At best, I would only be able to see it as a completely metaphorical story of how we eventually became aware of what we decided should be seen as "morality". A good thing to have before a society can even become one.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by TPaine on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:26 pm

@Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:I kind of thought you might be referring to a certain subset, but it might helpful to state so, for future reference. I'm just saying. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive today, though.

I question constantly, sometimes too much. I am still a Christian but not quite as conservative as I used to be.

I know the type well and have been hurt by some of them. But there are good conservative Christians out there...davelaw, for example. Smile You'll find good and bad in any group, I think. I wish I could say I've only been in the former category, but that would be a lie...
I wouldn't classify Dave as a member of what I call the Christian Reich. He may be conservative and an evangelical, but he is not one of those seeking a "Christian Nation" or theocracy. If I remember what he said in another thread he comes from an Anabaptist type background. Successors of the movement today include the Amish, Brethren, Hutterites, Mennonites, and Bruderhof Communities. All have been persecuted by both Protestants and Roman Catholics throughout their history. Wiki has a good article on the subject here.

Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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