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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by MaineCaptain on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:46 pm

gillyflower wrote:Calvinism was fairly easy for me to believe. You were either one the chosen or not and to me that meant I might as well not worry about it. Besides, the bible version of heaven with everyone standing around Yahweh singing about how wonderful he was wasn't appealing at all. How boring! And for eternity too. Unimaginably boring! I thought if I was Yahweh I'd pick the fun and interesting people to spend eternity with rather than the no-fun lemon sucking group, but hey, it was his call and if he wanted that set, well.... see below.

My parents did not believe in hell, especially for non-believers. They felt that everyone went a decent place, one that they would find comfortable. I hoped to go to a place that was entertaining and fun and didn't care if that was near Yahweh or not.

A place with Dragon con! Laughing


sorry lost there for a minture, PS. even though my mother was Catholic, and there for not a "real Christian" tm , to some people. She never believed any one went to hell for believing wrong, in fact when I was a child in Catholic school (yes I know), They said Pagans would go to hell, but not others who were different religions as long as they believed in Jesus. I have no idea what they teach now.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by wmdkitty on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:01 am

I'd rather party in Hell than be bored in Heaven! ^_^
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:07 am

DeavonReye wrote:No, . . . on christianforums dot net.

I like to go shake things up a bit. Get a load of this guys next post to me:

Nope. He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked, and He wants everyone to be saved. But, due to Original Sin and its resulting actions, no one wants to choose God. Everyone has betrayed a good God. Here's more bad news: Every single person who has ever lived deserves to burn in hell for ever and ever. The reason: no one is good; everyone sins. So God chooses a man to make his nation on Earth (Abram). Note that he didn't pick some other guy (perhaps in Egypt). Why? Because it was his plan. God does everything in accordance with his perfect will. You've got to realize that salvation is for the glory of God, not for the glory of man. So God saved who he wanted to save for His glory. The rest..well, He let them do what they wanted to do. And I'm afraid their destination is Hell.

Pfft, there's only one "Good God" that I am aware of, and I have certainly never betrayed him...

77. Then the druids of Ireland were summoned to them, together with
their physicians and their charioteers and their smiths and their
wealthy landowners and their lawyers. They conversed together secretly.

78. Then he asked the sorcerer, whose name was Mathgen, what power
he wielded. He answered that he would shake the mountains of Ireland
beneath the Fomoire so that their summits would fall to the ground. And
it would seem to them that the twelve chief mountains of the land of
Ireland would be fighting on behalf of the Tuatha De Danann: Slieve
League, and Denda Ulad, and the Mourne Mountains, and Bri Erigi and
Slieve Bloom and Slieve Snaght, Slemish and Blaisliab and Nephin
Mountain and Sliab Maccu Belgodon and the Curlieu hills and Croagh
Patrick.

79. Then he asked the cupbearer what power he wielded. He answered
that he would bring the twelve chief lochs of Ireland into the presence
of the Fomoire and they would not find water in them, however thirsty
they were. These are the lochs: Lough Derg, Lough Luimnig, Lough
Corrib, Lough Ree, Lough Mask, Strangford Lough, Belfast Lough, Lough
Neagh, Lough Foyle, Lough Gara, Loughrea, Marloch. They would proceed
to the twelve chief rivers of Ireland--the Bush, the Boyne, the Bann,
the Blackwater, the Lee, the Shannon, the Moy, the Sligo, the Erne, the
Finn, the Liffey, the Suir--and they would all be hidden from the
Fomoire so they would not find a drop in them. But drink will be
provided for the men of Ireland even if they remain in battle for seven
years.

80. Then Figol mac Mamois, their druid, said, "Three showers of fire
will be rained upon the faces of the Fomorian host, and I will take out
of them two-thirds of their courage and their skill at arms and their
strength, and I will bind their urine in their own bodies and in the
bodies of their horses. Every breath that the men of Ireland will
exhale will increase their courage and skill at arms and strength. Even
if they remain in battle for seven years, they will not be weary at all.

81. The Dagda said, "The power which you boast, I will wield it all myself."
"You are the Dagda ['the Good God']!" said everyone, and "Dagda" stuck to him from that time on.-- From CMT, Elizabeth A. Gray Translation.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:37 am

1) why would Satan battle for souls-the lake of Fire is his destination as punishment
2) first there was Sheol the grave/ then came Gehenna named after the valley outside of Jerusalem where they burned trash

fire was seen as a purifier/ that which made it through the fire was pure
the Talmud speculates that no one stays in Gehenna for more than a year and a day

these concepts got conflated with Greco/Roman concepts of a Kingdom of the underworld and then got further embellished by Dante
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by wmdkitty on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:39 am

What the hell was Dante smoking? I mean, seriously, man -- that was some heavy shit.

Note to self: must read Inferno.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:45 am

I have it here on my desk-its ponderous reading- go read the two Niven-Pournelle modern retelling of Inferno-its lighter reading and more entertaining
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by wmdkitty on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:46 am

Looks like I'm off to the library tomorrow.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:49 am

WMDKitty wrote:Looks like I'm off to the library tomorrow.

thats always a good thing Smile
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by wmdkitty on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:53 am

What are the chances that I get distracted by other books.... Razz
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Chokmah on Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:55 am

The concept of heaven, hell, and purgatory helped the leaders control the masses. Without the use of video cameras, computers, the internet, telephones, cell phones, cameras, newspapers, printed books, printing presses, modern roads, autos, airplanes, jets, or satellites.

So the ancient myths and superstitions of the Abrahamic religions may no longer make sense to modern humans. The epic tale of Satan v. God may no longer make sense either, especially if God is an All-powerful God.

Since the explosion of science in the 19th and 20th Century we have taken more time to look into the human psyche. Jungian depth psychology has helped to explain the significance of the 'shadow, which follows all men and women. The age of magic and superstition is over.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:28 am

Chokmah wrote:The age of magic and superstition is over.

Yeah, well...maybe.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:33 am

DotNotInOz wrote:
Chokmah wrote:The age of magic and superstition is over.

Yeah, well...maybe.

I think its having a new renaissance.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:35 am

I love science. I also love mysticism. A lot of religionists are threatened by science and a lot of scientists are threatened by religion. IMO, both parts are missing the whole and stand to learn a lot from each other. Religious scientists (scientists who are spiritual, that is) have the best opportunities for advancement and growth because they don't limit their worldview.

One thing I love about science is that it rarely ever explains something. It may give a cause to place the effect but rarely does science have the opportunity to explain the workings of the deeper, spiritual elements of our universe. Science gives us more questions. I love questions. Science answers the "how things work" but rarely can it answer "why". Because we will never have all the "whys", or even all the "hows", there will always be magic and superstition- for better and for worse- to fill in the blanks.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by LeahOne on Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:40 am

"The epic tale of Satan v. God may no longer make sense either, especially if God is an All-powerful God."

Well, that manichean sort of stuff never did make any sense in Judaism - considering that 'hasatan' is a job title of one of the angels who works for YHVH.

*sigh!* I keep telling you Christians it's unwise to assume that everything you read into the 'OT' is actually read out of teh Hebrew Bible. Those really are not identical books, y'know!

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:44 am

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:
Chokmah wrote:The age of magic and superstition is over.

Yeah, well...maybe.

I think its having a new renaissance.

For good reason. We had such marvelous breakthroughs in the last century - we went from riding horses to having vehicles, electricity, so-called modern medicine, technology, the advent of psychology, computers, mass availablity of books and media and information, and so much more. I'm sure, 70 years ago, people had incredible expectations for what society would be like by 2009- perfect, no doubt, seeing what great movements we were having. However, people are far less happier and healthier all around. Morale has sunk.

Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people.2Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion — about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 — who suffer from a serious mental illness.1 In addition, mental disorders are the leading cause of disability in the U.S. and Canada for ages 15-44.3 Many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a given time. Nearly half (45 percent) of those with any mental disorder meet criteria for 2 or more disorders, with severity strongly related to comorbidity.1
In the U.S., mental disorders are diagnosed based on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV).4

-National Institute of mental health.

This many people need to take drugs just to make it through life. It's obvious with all our modern leaps and bounds, science has not saved us.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:07 pm

Well, yes, science hasn't "saved us" where mental illness is concerned.

However, it certainly has done more to offer the possibility of relatively normal lives for the mentally ill than locking them in a room or chaining them to the wall as people once had little choice but to do.

I'm doubtful that your conclusion that "people are far less happier and healthier all around. Morale has sunk" is at all valid either.

I think it's quite inaccurate to say that people are less healthy in the U.S. than they once were. We knew much less about proper nutrition fifty years ago than we do now. That we know more is one reason, I think, why there's so much concern about unhealthy lifestyles today.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:16 pm

I'm not sure - I wasn't around really. But from what I've heard from other people, there weren't droves of people feeling mentally ill many years ago.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:36 pm

Well, maybe not. But in part, that was due to the fact that the seriously out-of-control mentally ill were isolated in state-run or expensive private institutions. It was unheard of up until around thirty or so years ago for a schizophrenic, for instance, to be capable of holding a job and living a pretty normal life since there just weren't the various psychotropic drugs that now enable a good many to do so. I'll never forget talking with a cousin of my ex-husband about how grateful she was for the drugs that enabled her as a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic to have a job and her own apartment.

Also, such things simply weren't discussed fifty or sixty years ago as much as they are now. Having a mentally ill family member was still shameful, so people didn't talk about it the way they do today.

Another thing, we didn't know back then that what was generally referred to as "feeling blue or down in the dumps" could be a chemical or hormonal imbalance affecting mood or behavior. It was thought, as with alcoholics, that being chronically unhappy was simply weakness of will or character. You should just "snap out of it" and were thought less of if you didn't.

I remember all too well how ineffectual were the occasional treatments my mother had for what was probably bipolar disorder. I was never told what exactly the diagnosis was, but her behavior was really scary when she had a psychotic episode. Consequently, I'll take today over yesterday any time where awareness and treatment of mental illness is concerned.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:55 pm

Chokmah wrote: The age of magic and superstition is over.

Magic is forever, unfortunately superstition seems to be as well.

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:09 pm

WMDKitty wrote:Looks like I'm off to the library tomorrow.
Dante's Divine Comedy consists of three parts, Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso. The library should have all three in one volume. WikiSource has the Inferno online. Dave is right, it is exceptionally boring reading. Dante used Inferno as a way to attack his enemies in Florence by putting them in hell in his poem. In the poem this was the sign over the Gates of Hell.

"Through me the way into the suffering city,
Through me the way to the eternal pain,
Through me the way that runs among the lost.

Justice urged on my high artificer;
My maker was divine authority,
The highest wisdom, and the primal love.

Before me nothing but eternal things were made,
And I endure eternally.
Abandon every hope, ye who enter here."

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:41 pm

DeavonReye wrote:No, . . . on christianforums dot net.

I like to go shake things up a bit. Get a load of this guys next post to me:

Nope. He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked, and He wants everyone to be saved. But, due to Original Sin and its resulting actions, no one wants to choose God. Everyone has betrayed a good God. Here's more bad news: Every single person who has ever lived deserves to burn in hell for ever and ever. The reason: no one is good; everyone sins. So God chooses a man to make his nation on Earth (Abram). Note that he didn't pick some other guy (perhaps in Egypt). Why? Because it was his plan. God does everything in accordance with his perfect will. You've got to realize that salvation is for the glory of God, not for the glory of man. So God saved who he wanted to save for His glory. The rest..well, He let them do what they wanted to do. And I'm afraid their destination is Hell.
I can't figure out the justification for Original Sin. According to the myth, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The serpent told Eve to go ahead and do it, so she did, then shared it with Adam. Ok, where is the sin? Until she ate the fruit she had no conception of good and evil (right and wrong) so she had no way of knowing that disobeying God was wrong. If there was no intent to sin, there was no crime.
The Calvinist concept of God, IMO, is that of an evil, ego-maniacal, deity who has only disdain for the beings he created. He sees them only as a means to increase his own self-glorification.
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by Chokmah on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:08 pm

Yahweh set the whole thing up in the Garden. YHWH even created the snake and put the snake in the Garden. Without the snake the rest of the story couldn't be told. This is all some giant cosmic game that the gods are playing with us. Why? I don't really know.

Satan is just as important to the Bible story as Yeshua, that's the puzzling thing. Why would God risk losing the majority of mankind to Gehenna. And does God even play the odds?

I don't think so, that is why the dismal religion of Calvin has this 'predestination'. That God actually picks and chooses the winners and losers BEFORE the game is even played!!!

How's that for Divine Justice? How's that for the Divine Comedy??
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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:47 pm

TPaine wrote:
I can't figure out the justification for Original Sin. According to the myth, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The serpent told Eve to go ahead and do it, so she did, then shared it with Adam. Ok, where is the sin? Until she ate the fruit she had no conception of good and evil (right and wrong) so she had no way of knowing that disobeying God was wrong. If there was no intent to sin, there was no crime.
The Calvinist concept of God, IMO, is that of an evil, ego-maniacal, deity who has only disdain for the beings he created. He sees them only as a means to increase his own self-glorification.

That sadly is how I view this as well.

And on an added note,
What's odd, IMO, is that even Christians don't seem to notice that they themselves are worshipping many different gods. No, not the trinity, entirely different gods, by that fact that every Christian sect and denom, describes their god differently.
To an outsider, they are clearly describing different beings.

I find that very interesting... Shocked

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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:38 pm

"Original Sinsuality"

There was a garden
In the beginning
Before the fall
Before Genesis

There was a tree there
A tree of knowledge
Sophia would insist
You must eat of this

Original sin?
No, I don't think so
Original sinsuality
Original sin?
No, it should be
Original sinsuality
Original sin?
No, I don't think so
Original sinsuality

Yaldaboath
Saklas
I'm calling you
Samael
You are not alone
I say
You are not alone
In your darkness
You are not alone
Baby
You are not alone


-- Tori Amos.


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Re: Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:33 am

TPaine wrote:
I can't figure out the justification for Original Sin. According to the myth, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The serpent told Eve to go ahead and do it, so she did, then shared it with Adam. Ok, where is the sin? Until she ate the fruit she had no conception of good and evil (right and wrong) so she had no way of knowing that disobeying God was wrong. If there was no intent to sin, there was no crime.
The Calvinist concept of God, IMO, is that of an evil, ego-maniacal, deity who has only disdain for the beings he created. He sees them only as a means to increase his own self-glorification.

This thought (they wouldn't understand what WAS "good or evil" until they ate the fruit) is always lost on those Christians who post to Christian forum sites. They just don't understand the logic, . . . and it is SOOOO very true. Until you KNOW what "good and evil" is, any action cannot be an act of "a personal will to disobey". If they KNEW that it was a sin, . . . then they would have already known what "good and evil" was, and wouldn't have needed to eat from the tree that was supposed to give them that knowledge in the first place. It is the proverbial "chicken and the egg" thing. A paradox, of sorts.

But then, . . . . . logic is often lost to the "blindly believing".
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