English Language Classics

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English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:49 pm

I'm not advocating forcing my Beliefs or Holy Book on any one; but still I gotta ask-Can one truly be literate in the English Language classics and not having a working knowledge of the OT and NT?
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:21 pm

How is it an English Language classic? I mean,

1. The English Version is a translation, and
2. Which English Version would you be talking about for that matter.




I mean, Western History, that I could get behind, but English Language, not so much.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:26 pm

the classics are rife with references to it-sorry if I was unclear

Melville , Faulkner, Shakespeare, Donne, Milton, Bacon etc...
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:27 pm

the version is irrelevant-its the stories and events that get referred to
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by gillyflower on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:30 pm

I think that a person needs to learn as much about the myths in the bible as they do the Greek myths. The Greek are referred to as much or more than the bible myths.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:34 pm

gillyflower wrote:I think that a person needs to learn as much about the myths in the bible as they do the Greek myths. The Greek are referred to as much or more than the bible myths.

I learned all the Greek myths in school as well as many of the Norse; are you suggesting the same for the Bible?
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:35 pm

There is a big difference between learning the myths, and learning the verses.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by gillyflower on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:37 pm

Yes, I'd be behind that as long as the teacher stresses that they are myths with mythical gods and compare them with other myths from contemporary cultures to see all the borrowing that went on. One of my 9th graders had a class like that. It was fascinating to see how many myths were borrowed and how Yahweh changed from a tribal war god to the later version of him.

Ed to add: There was no learning of verses. The stories was laid out in the same manner as the Greek myths. It was really interesting and, of course, the mythical attributes were rather glaring when studied alongside other myths.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:51 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:There is a big difference between learning the myths, and learning the verses.

Who is advocating that? Not even the New Texas Public School initiative for reading the Bible for its place in Anglo/American history is advocating that.
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:53 pm

gillyflower wrote:Yes, I'd be behind that as long as the teacher stresses that they are myths with mythical gods and compare them with other myths from contemporary cultures to see all the borrowing that went on. One of my 9th graders had a class like that. It was fascinating to see how many myths were borrowed and how Yahweh changed from a tribal war god to the later version of him.

Ed to add: There was no learning of verses. The stories was laid out in the same manner as the Greek myths. It was really interesting and, of course, the mythical attributes were rather glaring when studied alongside other myths.

as a Fundy Christian, I have no problem with that-any thing more should happen in the Church or Home
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:36 pm

Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I think that a person needs to learn as much about the myths in the bible as they do the Greek myths. The Greek are referred to as much or more than the bible myths.

I learned all the Greek myths in school as well as many of the Norse; are you suggesting the same for the Bible?

Actually, Biblical characters are often omited from stuides of mythology...

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:40 pm

I know; but the English language classics reference them a bunch
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:42 pm

Davelaw wrote:I know; but the English language classics reference them a bunch

This is true, but through a general difusion of Western culture (even pop culture) many of those references or allusions can be understood without going to the source material.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:47 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I know; but the English language classics reference them a bunch

This is true, but through a general difusion of Western culture (even pop culture) many of those references or allusions can be understood without going to the source material.

Can a modern reader really understand Abasalom,O Absalom by Faulkner without having a passing familiarity with the source material? Maybe they could with Steinbeck's East of Eden-i guess you really don't have to know that its a retelling of Cain and Able after the fall. But wouldn't that enhance the story?
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by gillyflower on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:51 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I think that a person needs to learn as much about the myths in the bible as they do the Greek myths. The Greek are referred to as much or more than the bible myths.

I learned all the Greek myths in school as well as many of the Norse; are you suggesting the same for the Bible?

Actually, Biblical characters are often omited from stuides of mythology...

Not in the class that one of my children took. The Christian and Jewish gods and their pantheons were treated just as the Greek and Norse ones were. It was pretty interesting to look at them all that way.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:52 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I know; but the English language classics reference them a bunch

This is true, but through a general difusion of Western culture (even pop culture) many of those references or allusions can be understood without going to the source material.

Can a modern reader really understand Abasalom,O Absalom by Faulkner without having a passing familiarity with the source material? Maybe they could with Steinbeck's East of Eden-i guess you really don't have to know that its a retelling of Cain and Able after the fall. But wouldn't that enhance the story?

Quite possibly, but the same could be said for a lot of seminal works of fiction. For example, most people have read and enjoy the Hobbit + Lord of the Rings, without having read the Silmarillion. Many will later read it (few read it prior to) and other works and it is true that an entire depth of meaning is added, but this does not preclude that they are not enjoyable or understood without it.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:54 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I think that a person needs to learn as much about the myths in the bible as they do the Greek myths. The Greek are referred to as much or more than the bible myths.

I learned all the Greek myths in school as well as many of the Norse; are you suggesting the same for the Bible?

Actually, Biblical characters are often omited from stuides of mythology...

Not in the class that one of my children took. The Christian and Jewish gods and their pantheons were treated just as the Greek and Norse ones were. It was pretty interesting to look at them all that way.

Then this is the exceptional case, I've read an awful lot of books on mythology, world mythology, dictionaries on mythology, and most Biblical references are absent. I believe they should be there, so good on the teacher (or cirruculum) for doing so,

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:56 pm

you would have better argument if you were arguing that one can enjoy Ricard Wagner without knowing Norse mythology; but who really enjoys Wagner?
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by gillyflower on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:59 pm

I do! The Ring Cycle is great. I have my favorite bits of it.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:59 pm

Davelaw wrote:you would have better argument if you were arguing that one can enjoy Ricard Wagner without knowing Norse mythology; but who really enjoys Wagner?

... I can think of a couple, but they aren't particularly reputable Razz

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:59 pm

and I don't mind them being there because there is what i believe to be True Mythology-in other the fact that it has a mythological basis doesn't diminsh from the meaning I derive from it

I doesn't bother me that Dumuzzi was born in Bethlehem first
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by gillyflower on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:01 pm

The thing is unless it is one's field or one's passion, most people find a little bit of information is sufficient. A quick telling of a myth is fine, no need to go back to the original.

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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:01 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
Davelaw wrote:you would have better argument if you were arguing that one can enjoy Ricard Wagner without knowing Norse mythology; but who really enjoys Wagner?

... I can think of a couple, but they aren't particularly reputable Razz

bits and pieces sure; the Valkyrie is classic; but I better have a gun to my head if I'm listening to the whole Cycle
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:02 pm

gillyflower wrote:The thing is unless it is one's field or one's passion, most people find a little bit of information is sufficient. A quick telling of a myth is fine, no need to go back to the original.

can't disagree with that either
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Re: English Language Classics

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:03 pm

but i prefer the originals; or close approximations like what Silverberg did with Gilgamesh
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Re: English Language Classics

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