Blessed be the racists and haters?

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:13 pm

Davelaw wrote:agreed

I'll give you a personal example from here in Texas as well:

my brother as many here now was originally convicted of murder and given a 40 year sentence

while his case was on appeal, he was housed in a unit where he began classes in restaurant and food service management-he had completed more than half the program; when his appeal was granted

he was then sent back to our county for a new trial and eventually made a deal for manslaughter on a 12 year sentence

he was told he could not go back to his old unit and continue his classes and is now in an entirely different unit starting all over by taking general credit classes

Dave, to me you've hit on the problem. As long as the main focus of the prison system is punishment rather than education and rehabilitation we will continue to have the highest rate of incarceration, and recidivism, in the world. You're a defense attorney. If by that you mean criminal defense, could you estimate what percentage of your clients have an education above a junior high school level? To the best of my knowledge, most people with SAT scores above 1200 and a university degree rarely wind up on Folsom, Attica, Atlanta, or Leavenworth; but many who drop out before attending hight school do.
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:01 pm

thats hard to guess if they are getting time its not a question we ask

probationers are usually required to get a high school diploma or its equivalence (GED)

i have had a few genius level clients in my 19 years of practice; but they are rare-the two I remember-both were true habitual criminals-1) studied Nietzsche and wrote editorials to the NY Times but lived by committing scams when ever he was in the free world -he thought he was smarter than everyone else and often over looked the little things like many companies market the same product with different tracking codes so if you steal a product from one company-the company you return it to will know its not their product

2) smart guy but a lieutenant in the AY (Aryan Youth); so it was really a power thing-to give up crime would be giving up his respect and power
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:40 pm

Chokmah wrote:
TPaine wrote:
warlordofks wrote:

Oh, you don't need to tell me about that hate movement. My baby brother Michael is a member of it. He joined while he was in prison. Also, every month the Security Company I work for gets a magazine about the latest happenings with all the different hate groups & what they've said or done. Twisted Evil Blow Up
Joining a gang in prison these days is almost a requirement for survival, and as far as I can find out all gangs are based on race and hate. It seems the system is failing and has been for years but no one has any answers. I've always thought that first-time offenders should be put in separate prisons so they can be taught what may help them in rehabilitation rather than receiving a course in being a better criminal taught by lifers.


Typically, people are put in criminal training schools (ie 'prisons'), where they hone their skills and develop new contacts for when they are thrown back onto the street with a prison record and no funds to buy clothes or pay rent.

Unless a convict has family and friends to help out they are s.o.l. and the only way they can survive is to go back to what they know best.

What a system!

Chocky. While in general I can agree with both you & Tpaine. I have a strong disagreement with this part of your post. Unless a convict has family and friends to help out they are s.o.l. and the only way they can survive is to go back to what they know best. PB&A & I helped him in 1978 to make parole. Got him a job with the company I worked for, helped him by co-signing for a car so he could get around, took him into our home. He repaid us by writing hot checks to obtain guns & ammo, then taking off & jumping parole leaving behind a hit list with ove 50 names of people to be killed which included President Jimmy Carter. He was caught & sent to a Federal Prison & released on probation into our Parents care in 1981. Three months later he jumped & ran going on a crime spree, shooting a man in the back & hijacking his car. He took off to San Diego where he put another brothers family in jepordy & was taken in by a SWAT TEAM. He was returned to Texas where he received a sentence of 20 years to life. In 1994 I started to visit him in prison & kept in communication with him through the years. I'm sorry to say that he had convinced me that finally he changed, found God, & was remorseful for his crimes. I & my sister Maria helped him make parole in 2003 & he was sent to Tucson to live with her. The thinking that a new location where no one knew him would be condusive to his being sucessfully rehabilitize back into society. Three months after he was out my sister had to take out a restraining order because he beat her & threatened her. Three months later he murdered her. Just before Maria was murdered she sent me an e-mail saying that if anything happened to her to tell the Police that Michael did it. This is now a fact as not only has he confessed, but they have dna evidence. He was arrested in 2003 for a minor parole violation as they didn't have enough evidence to arrest him for Maria's murder. Sent back to Texas in 2005 where they imediately put him in a halfway house instead of revoking his parole. Three months later he again jumped parole even though he was on a electric monitor. He just cut it off & ran back to Tucson where he was caught 8 months later. Once again was returned to Texas & this time his parole was revoked & he was returned to prison. In Dec of 2008 Texas once again granted him parole. I had been warning them for years that he would jump & run & that this time if he did innocent people would die. But Texas didn't deem him to be a risk to the public dispite his history of jumping & committing more & more violent acts. Now not only is he charged with murdering Maria, but with also murdering a couple who took him in to help him. After murdering the kind couple he burned their bodies for 3 days in a fire pit. So please my friends don't say Unless a convict has family and friends to help out they are s.o.l. and the only way they can survive is to go back to what they know best. That's a compleat lie as far as I'm concerned. He's now facing the death penalty in Ariz. On this I'm torn up. It's not so black & white now. My head says it's the only approbiate punishment while my heart says that because he's still my brother no matter how evil he is give him life without parole. My friends. I know that it's easy to say/believe things when you're just a bystander so to speak. But it's not for me. There'll be no winners. And the psycological damage that he's done is not only unspeakable but beyond understanding. Sad Crying or Very sad

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:26 pm

I'm so sorry for you and your family, warlordofks. That's a terrible thing to go through.

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Chokmah on Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:27 pm

warlord ,

I am sorry for all the misery your brother caused, he sounds like a very sick and disturbed individual. Did he have a drug and alcohol problem?

I am currently trying to help a woman who used to work for us, and I am constantly questioning myself as to whether I am just wasting my time (and money) trying to help her.

I think she is sincere but many people tell me these types are great con artists and that she will be back doing drugs and petty crimes as soon as she is released and goes through the rehab program.

She has a history of petty crimes, all non-violent, and this is working against her as they have a scoring system here in Florida. I don't think she is a sociopath but I do think she has 'issues' as one woman who befriended her has said.
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:34 pm

Alex's brother is among those, I think, who may be genetically flawed and thus incapable of genuine reformation. In his case, I suspect that no amount of help would have made any difference and that probably his claiming remorse as a result of having found God was simply a pretext he believed might get him out of jail sooner.

For others, I think it's possible that support of family and friends may make a difference. However, someone must want very badly to change in order to be capable of making that profound an alteration in one's lifestyle, IMO.
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:15 am

Dot, Chocky, & all other friends here. I honestly don't know what to say. I tried to be a good influence on him for the first 14 years of his life. I don't know if he used any drugs stronger than maryjane. I do put part of the blame on our father. Hitting little kids upside the head with his fists, abusing them in many other physical ways like shooting at them & in my case being pistol whipped by him. As well as the sexual abuse all of us suffered at his hands had to affect him. No child should've gone through the hell we went through. Nor do I understand how up until he was 15 he was a very loving & caring person. Then it seemed that overnight he changed completely. I was no saint then or now. I did my share of minor crimes & spent time in prison. None of which were violent in nature. But my record has been expunged. I've seen more than enough violence in my lifetime. From my childhood, from being in the Navy during the start of the Nam era, to seeing my father try to kill himself twice. Once in 1958 when I was only 13 he drank a whole bottle of arsenic, blaming me for all his troubles & then again in 1968 when I was 23 he shot himself by sticking a gun down his throat & pulling the trigger right in front of me, once again blaming me. Both times I held him in my arms & cried. Is it any wonder that among all my other medical problems I also suffer P.T.S.D. And now once again I'm being torn apart by all that's happened. The shocks to my system these last 5 1/2 years have been pure hell. This was the baby whose diapers I changed, who I got up in the middle of the night when I was only 11 to feed him, to comfort him. Who protected him as a baby & as a toddler from our fathers rage & violence. I grew up too fast. PB&A & our daughter will tell you that I'm totally opposite of my father.

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by MaineCaptain on Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:41 am

((((Alex)))))

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TPaine on Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:12 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:Alex's brother is among those, I think, who may be genetically flawed and thus incapable of genuine reformation. In his case, I suspect that no amount of help would have made any difference and that probably his claiming remorse as a result of having found God was simply a pretext he believed might get him out of jail sooner.

For others, I think it's possible that support of family and friends may make a difference. However, someone must want very badly to change in order to be capable of making that profound an alteration in one's lifestyle, IMO.

Dot,
According to wiki, the late Dr. David T. Lykken distinguishes between the causes of psychopathic and sociopathic behavior.
David T. Lykken proposes psychopathy and sociopathy are two distinct kinds of antisocial personality disorder. He believes psychopaths are born with temperamental differences such as impulsivity, cortical underarousal, and fearlessness that lead them to risk-seeking behavior and an inability to internalize social norms. On the other hand, he claims sociopaths have relatively normal temperaments; their personality disorder being more an effect of negative sociological factors like parental neglect, delinquent peers, poverty, and extremely low or extremely high intelligence. Both personality disorders are the result of an interaction between genetic predispositions and environmental factors, but psychopathy leans towards the hereditary whereas sociopathy tends towards the environmental.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Symptoms

Then again, I'm no one to talk. I barely squeaked through Psychology 101 and as a history major didn't have to go beyond that. Smile
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:35 am

Agreed, TPaine, based upon Alex's description of their childhoods above.

Hell, what do I know? I squeaked through basic psych courses, finding all the terminology incredibly boring.
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TPaine on Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:03 am

DotNotInOz wrote:Agreed, TPaine, based upon Alex's description of their childhoods above.

Hell, what do I know? I squeaked through basic psych courses, finding all the terminology incredibly boring.
Back in my college days I found it boring as well. Now that I'm older (and maybe somewhat more mature Rolling Eyes )
I wish I had paid closer attention and had learned more. Anyway, Dr. Michael Stone in the ID Channel series Most Evil has ranked criminals into categories based on their crimes. Maybe Alex can associate his brother with a description or person on the list.
Dr. Michael Stones' 22 step ranking of evil

1.Those who kill in self defense (Cheryl Pierson)
2. Jealous lovers who kill (Jean Harris)
3. Willing companions of killers (Cindy Campbell)
4. Criminals who kill in self defense, but are extremely provocative toward the victim (Susan Cummings)
5. Traumatized, desperate persons who kill (Susan Wyche)
6. Impetuous, hot-headed murderers, who don't have marked psychopathic features (Issei Sagawa)
7. Highly narcissistic, but not distinctly psychopathic persons, who kill "loved ones" out of jealousy (Prosenjit Poddar)
8. Non-psychopathic persons with smoldering rage. (Charles Whitman)
9. Jealous lovers with marked psychopathic features.(Betty Broderick)
10. Non-psychopathic killers who murder people who are “in the way.” (John List)
11. Psychopathic killers who murder people “in the way.” (Robert Chambers)
12. Power-hungry psychopaths who kill when cornered. (Jim Jones)
13. Psychopathic murderers who kill out of rage.(Richard Speck)
14. Ruthlessly self-centered psychopathic schemers who kill to benefit themselves (Sante Kimes)
15. Psychopathic spree or multiple murderers. (Charles Starkweather)
16. Psychopaths committing multiple vicious acts, which may also include murder. (Dr. Michael Swango).
17. Sexually perverse serial murderers: In males, rape is usually the primary motive and the victim is murdered to hide evidence (Ted Bundy)
18. Torturer-murderers: Murder is the primary motive and victims are killed after a torture that was not prolonged. (Jerry Brudos)
19.Psychopaths driven to terrorism, subjugation, intimidation and rape, but short of murder.(Gary Krist}
20. Torturer-murderers: Torture is the primary motive with these killers. (Joseph Kallinger and his 13-year-old son)
21. Psychopaths who do not kill their victims, but do subject them to extreme torture. (Cameron Hooker and his wife)
22. Psychopaths who inflict extreme torture on their victims and then murder them. (Dennis Rader (aka "the BTK Killer"))
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:20 pm

Whew! I watch Most Evil every now and again but didn't know that Rader had been ranked as a "Most of the Most."

Not surprising altogether.

I recall being astounded at his narcissism when it was reported a few days after his arrest that he was distressed because he'd gotten no messages from his wife and children.

At that point, it was evident that he had no concern for others nor sense of decency whatsoever.
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:01 pm

TPaine wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:Agreed, TPaine, based upon Alex's description of their childhoods above.

Hell, what do I know? I squeaked through basic psych courses, finding all the terminology incredibly boring.
Back in my college days I found it boring as well. Now that I'm older (and maybe somewhat more mature Rolling Eyes )
I wish I had paid closer attention and had learned more. Anyway, Dr. Michael Stone in the ID Channel series Most Evil has ranked criminals into categories based on their crimes. Maybe Alex can associate his brother with a description or person on the list.
Dr. Michael Stones' 22 step ranking of evil

1.Those who kill in self defense (Cheryl Pierson)
2. Jealous lovers who kill (Jean Harris)
3. Willing companions of killers (Cindy Campbell)
4. Criminals who kill in self defense, but are extremely provocative toward the victim (Susan Cummings)
5. Traumatized, desperate persons who kill (Susan Wyche)
6. Impetuous, hot-headed murderers, who don't have marked psychopathic features (Issei Sagawa)
7. Highly narcissistic, but not distinctly psychopathic persons, who kill "loved ones" out of jealousy (Prosenjit Poddar)
8. Non-psychopathic persons with smoldering rage. (Charles Whitman)
9. Jealous lovers with marked psychopathic features.(Betty Broderick)
10. Non-psychopathic killers who murder people who are “in the way.” (John List)
11. Psychopathic killers who murder people “in the way.” (Robert Chambers)
12. Power-hungry psychopaths who kill when cornered. (Jim Jones)
13. Psychopathic murderers who kill out of rage.(Richard Speck)
14. Ruthlessly self-centered psychopathic schemers who kill to benefit themselves (Sante Kimes)
15. Psychopathic spree or multiple murderers. (Charles Starkweather)
16. Psychopaths committing multiple vicious acts, which may also include murder. (Dr. Michael Swango).
17. Sexually perverse serial murderers: In males, rape is usually the primary motive and the victim is murdered to hide evidence (Ted Bundy)
18. Torturer-murderers: Murder is the primary motive and victims are killed after a torture that was not prolonged. (Jerry Brudos)
19.Psychopaths driven to terrorism, subjugation, intimidation and rape, but short of murder.(Gary Krist}
20. Torturer-murderers: Torture is the primary motive with these killers. (Joseph Kallinger and his 13-year-old son)
21. Psychopaths who do not kill their victims, but do subject them to extreme torture. (Cameron Hooker and his wife)
22. Psychopaths who inflict extreme torture on their victims and then murder them. (Dennis Rader (aka "the BTK Killer"))

I've watched that show. And I'm well aware of Dr. Stone's rankings. I unfortunately would most likely rank him 22. If you could see the latest pictures of him you would see why. He has the same dead eyes that Dennis Rader had. That was the first thing that struck me when I first received the pictures from Texas. And everyone who has seen the pictures swear they were looking at Dennis Rader aka BTK. Because he hasn't gone to trial yet there are some things that I'm aware of that I can't disclose at this time. While my other brothers have committed domestic violence at one time or another, they've never done the kind of violence that Michael has. I've been asked how come I've never been violent. Considering the type of home all us were brought up in. I don't know why. Why I turned out different. In fact I've always been considered the coward of the family. I know that it took 20 years for me to open up to PB&A. I've always kept thing hidden inside to avoid arguements or argueing.

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TPaine on Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:12 am

For those who have no idea who Dennis Rader is, he was aka. The BTK killer, BTK stood for Bind, Torture, Kill. Here is his booking picture:


Isn't he a sweetheart?


Last edited by TPaine on Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:11 am

TPaine wrote:For those who have no idea who Dennis Rader is, he was aka. The BTK killer, BTK stood for Bind, Torture, Kill. Here is his booking picture:


Isn't he a sweetheart?

He's a poor, sick mind.

I pity his victims even more though of course.

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:08 am

I must not be understanding something. People who kill in self defense evil?
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:15 am

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I must not be understanding something. People who kill in self defense evil?

Says who?

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:24 am

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I must not be understanding something. People who kill in self defense evil?

I think a ranking of one on that chart means not evil.
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:35 am

Okay, I was gonna say.

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TPaine on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:49 am

Actually, the Cheryl Pierson case wasn't as cut and dried as the self-defense comment makes it seem. There was some premeditation involved. Pierson's father had sexually abused her, so she paid a classmate, Sean Pica, $400 to kill him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfield_High_School#Pierson.2FPica_Homicide_Case
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:57 am

but even so, as we say in Texas some people need killing...
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:58 am

... more than horses need stealing
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:04 pm

Davelaw wrote:but even so, as we say in Texas some people need killing...

Amen to that! Wink

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:08 pm

Davelaw wrote:but even so, as we say in Texas some people need killing...

why do you think that is?

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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:17 pm

laws of probability
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Re: Blessed be the racists and haters?

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