What If?

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Re: What If?

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:01 am

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:Ahhh...it's an "egghead's question."

That certainly explains a lot. (Not that I've ever speculated about something of this sort myself, of course.)

[MA from St. John's College Great Books Program, if that explains anything.]

my most treasured possession is Encyclopedia Britannica's Great Books of the Western World that my parents bought for me when I was an infant

Lucky you to have had such wise parents!

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Re: What If?

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:04 am

Davelaw wrote:a similar question that would be just a interesting to me-if we discovered a group of people who had exactly preserved first century Christianity-which Christian groups would accept them?-part of our own mythology among my faith group is that we are the closest to first century worship

Okay, but the question there would be, "Which variant of first century Christianity?"

We now know that there was a far wider variation in beliefs than most people today think there was. For instance, the Ebionites were essentially Jews who upheld OT law and did not believe Jesus was divine. However, they did accept as valid some of the current canon of scripture. The Marcionites believed in two Gods rather than one God, thought Jesus was entirely divine and not at all human.

There were others, but the above are merely samples of how dramatically different from today's generally accepted beliefs about Jesus some of the first century Christians' beliefs were.
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Re: What If?

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:13 am

i don't believe Marcionites were first century; but I essentially meant Pauline/Johanine Christianity
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Re: What If?

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:23 am

True, Marcionites were later, but the point stands, I believe, that not only were there somewhat varied beliefs among very early Christians, but we've no way of knowing whether what is now thought of as Pauline Christianity was like that of the first century.

I really don't see how we've a basis for assessing this other than wild (and fruitless) speculation.
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Re: What If?

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:32 am

Oh, but there are various groups that are sure they know. I have actually heard sermons -only partially tongue in Cheek-referring to the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem headed by the Apostles after Pentecost.

and we have a whole series of churches founded on Christian recontructionism-the belief that they could recreate first century practices-thats the descendants of the Campbell/Stone movement: Church of Christ, disciples of Christ, Christian Church

we know because they were Baptists for about a decade than they left; because Baptists were basically separatists at the time and they wanted to have practices like immersion but still follow the small "c" Catholic calendar to maintain some fellowship with the greater Christian community
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Re: What If?

Post by LeahOne on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:31 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:I hope Leah will happen onto this thread to give us an authoritative answer.

I can think of one reason why they'd not be regarded as actual Jews by contemporary Jews, and that would be that the designated place for performance of animal sacrifices was the Temple which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. The Torah clearly states that animal sacrifices cannot be done anywhere and everywhere but must only be done in the place that G-d would designate which was the Temple built and dedicated in King Solomon's time.

[Did I get that right, Leah? I'm kind of winging it here based on what hubby's said and my knowing only enough about Judaism to be very dangerous.]
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OY! Heaven help us indeed if I'm what's passing for a 'chochem' (wise person) around here, LOL!

Pretty close, Dot: actually if you follow the Hebrew Bible, with the passing of time the sacrifices get more and more restricted - and with the destruction of the First Temple, the sages find another way. (those sacrifices being related to Temple ritual purity and NOT!!!! for at-ONE-ment of sins against other people - which always include a sin against YHVH).

It's not entirely a matter of 'would Jewry accept them as Jews' - it's equally 'would they WANT to be considered Jews'! We've come across a number of situations halfway like that: the Beta Israel of Ethiopia didn't have Purim or Hanukkah, so we know they were isolated from us quite a while back. But they very much wanted to be 'real' Jews - so much so that a few of them actually WALKED 'home' to Eretz Yisroel.

Ther is a tiny group of people in Uganda, the 'Abayudaya', who have had a Rabbi graduated from a eminary in Israel, and are re-joining the Jewish People.

I'm not sure of the status of the Lemba tribe in subsaharan Africa - but their men carry the 'Cohanic' geentic marker in sufficient number to have intersted the outreach folks.

Wiser heads than I would decide such matters. FYI - we 'adopted' the Samaritans, so that they could at least be protected under Muslim rule as 'Jews'. They are 'heretical' Jews, but we wouldn't disown them because they'd have been at the mercy of the Muslims with no recourse. (besides, I don't think all 722 of them could 'corrupt' Judaism very much.)

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Re: What If?

Post by LeahOne on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:41 pm

I just had to bump this again so I don't have to see that other thread title.


You folks have NO IDEA ........

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Re: What If?

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:39 pm

LeahOne wrote:DotNotInOz wrote:I hope Leah will happen onto this thread to give us an authoritative answer.

I can think of one reason why they'd not be regarded as actual Jews by contemporary Jews, and that would be that the designated place for performance of animal sacrifices was the Temple which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. The Torah clearly states that animal sacrifices cannot be done anywhere and everywhere but must only be done in the place that G-d would designate which was the Temple built and dedicated in King Solomon's time.

[Did I get that right, Leah? I'm kind of winging it here based on what hubby's said and my knowing only enough about Judaism to be very dangerous.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OY! Heaven help us indeed if I'm what's passing for a 'chochem' (wise person) around here, LOL!

Pretty close, Dot: actually if you follow the Hebrew Bible, with the passing of time the sacrifices get more and more restricted - and with the destruction of the First Temple, the sages find another way. (those sacrifices being related to Temple ritual purity and NOT!!!! for at-ONE-ment of sins against other people - which always include a sin against YHVH).

It's not entirely a matter of 'would Jewry accept them as Jews' - it's equally 'would they WANT to be considered Jews'! We've come across a number of situations halfway like that: the Beta Israel of Ethiopia didn't have Purim or Hanukkah, so we know they were isolated from us quite a while back. But they very much wanted to be 'real' Jews - so much so that a few of them actually WALKED 'home' to Eretz Yisroel.

Ther is a tiny group of people in Uganda, the 'Abayudaya', who have had a Rabbi graduated from a eminary in Israel, and are re-joining the Jewish People.

I'm not sure of the status of the Lemba tribe in subsaharan Africa - but their men carry the 'Cohanic' geentic marker in sufficient number to have intersted the outreach folks.

Wiser heads than I would decide such matters. FYI - we 'adopted' the Samaritans, so that they could at least be protected under Muslim rule as 'Jews'. They are 'heretical' Jews, but we wouldn't disown them because they'd have been at the mercy of the Muslims with no recourse. (besides, I don't think all 722 of them could 'corrupt' Judaism very much.)

I think the Masai have Cohanic markers as well
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Re: What If?

Post by LeahOne on Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:38 pm

Now that's one I hadn't heard....

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Re: What If?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:04 am

bump for Leah

to keep the other thread off the the radar
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Re: What If?

Post by LeahOne on Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:39 pm

((((((Dave)))), you have a kind heart : ))

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Re: What If?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:48 pm

Leah, if makes you feel bad; it makes me feel bad-even if i can't truly grasp the full meaning. I 'll just take your word for it.
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Re: What If?

Post by LeahOne on Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:43 pm

((((((((Dave))))))), just to be really clear on this:

My 'you have no idea' wasn't any kind of a 'you lack ability to comprehend' or anything less than 100% appreciation of your kindness.

It was more like 'you nice folks don't even want to read my flaming reaction to that, so I won't indulge myself. It's bad for my BP: I wind up having to stroke my big gray pussy so long, even he gets fidgety!'.......

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Re: What If?

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