Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:15 pm

Davelaw wrote:now who is making assumptions? read a little further to the entire list and it specifically says that Jesus called Simon, Peter

Where does he say this? It's another incoherence then.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:15 pm

Davelaw wrote:funny, the early church fathers say Matthew was first

And their evidence is ... ?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:44 pm

that they were closer in time and thats is their tradition
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:48 pm

Davelaw wrote:that they were closer in time and thats is their tradition

what is the earliest reference to 'Matthew' being the earliest author?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:51 pm

i would have to look it up; prolly late 250's AD-i'll get back to you

have a good day
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:00 pm

Davelaw wrote:i would have to look it up; prolly late 250's AD-i'll get back to you

have a good day

so what is the evidence that they got this right in the late 250 AD? Quite some time after the alleged events, isn't it?? Wink

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by TPaine on Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:29 pm

Dr. Bart D. Ehrman dates the synoptic gospels as follows:
Luke: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & L
Matthew: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & M
Mark: 65-70 CE Sources: Oral traditional stories
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:47 am

TPaine wrote:Dr. Bart D. Ehrman dates the synoptic gospels as follows:
Luke: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & L
Matthew: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & M
Mark: 65-70 CE Sources: Oral traditional stories

buts partly because Ehrman rejects the statements of the Church fathers that Matthew was first wriiten in Aramaic and then translated into Greek; Ehrman believes the lost Gospel of Matthew to the Hebrews was distinct and unrelated to the gospel of Matthew we have today
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:57 am

Davelaw wrote:
TPaine wrote:Dr. Bart D. Ehrman dates the synoptic gospels as follows:
Luke: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & L
Matthew: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & M
Mark: 65-70 CE Sources: Oral traditional stories

buts partly because Ehrman rejects the statements of the Church fathers that Matthew was first wriiten in Aramaic and then translated into Greek; Ehrman believes the lost Gospel of Matthew to the Hebrews was distinct and unrelated to the gospel of Matthew we have today

Dave, I'm still waiting for your evidence that what the Church Fathers said was correct ... ?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:01 am

sorry, my time machine's not working today

what evidence would that be?

the imprecise nature of modern textual criticism versus an unbroken line of discipleship

from John of Ephesus who claimed to be the last living apostle to Polycarp to Justin Martyr
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:03 am

Davelaw wrote:sorry, my time machine's not working today

what evidence would that be?

the imprecise nature of modern textual criticism versus an unbroken line of discipleship

from John of Ephesus who claimed to be the last living apostle to Polycarp to Justin Martyr

what's the actual evidence for this 'unbroken line of discipleship'? and when did it start?

and what's the actual evidence that what they were transmitting was the actual truth?


Last edited by Celsus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:04 am

...

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:17 am

John the Elder in Ephesus dies circa 90 ad

Ephesus was the center of the Johanine tradition: Gospel, letters, Revelation

the only point of contention is the identity of John the Elder
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:19 am

Davelaw wrote:John the Elder in Ephesus dies circa 90 ad

Ephesus was the center of the Johanine tradition: Gospel, letters, Revelation

the only point of contention is the identity of John the Elder

and that's only a minor point, I guess? Wink

so what TEXTS do we have from John the Elder that would help you make your case? And he wasn't even an eye-witness according to Eusebius.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:48 am

no text except the scriptures and Polycarp says he was
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:52 am

Davelaw wrote:no text except the scriptures and Polycarp says he was

that's nearly next to nothing you have there. how is that supposed to help your case then?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:55 am

tradition is next nothing? not to me
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:58 am

Davelaw wrote:tradition is next nothing? not to me

which tradition? what is the EARLIEST evidence for a tradition which claimed that Jesus was betrayed by a Judas Iscariot?

and that still wouldn't prove that it actually happened that way. there are lots of crazy traditions out there.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:58 am

Davelaw wrote:
TPaine wrote:Dr. Bart D. Ehrman dates the synoptic gospels as follows:
Luke: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & L
Matthew: 80-85 CE Sources: Mark, Q, & M
Mark: 65-70 CE Sources: Oral traditional stories

buts partly because Ehrman rejects the statements of the Church fathers that Matthew was first wriiten in Aramaic and then translated into Greek; Ehrman believes the lost Gospel of Matthew to the Hebrews was distinct and unrelated to the gospel of Matthew we have today

Obviously such a Gospel of Matthew to the Hebrews is lost, because were it not, Ehrman, who is fluent in Aramaic as well as Hebrew and Greek would have no trouble reading it. Which church fathers claim the existence of this document? Does it predate Q? There are other reasons to believe in the primacy of Mark. Ehrman puts it this way. Excuse me for copying from the book, but it's late and I have to get up early
tomorrow.

Arguments for Markan Priority
For the past century or so, three arguments have proved widely convincing for establishing Mark's priority to Matthew and Luke.

Patterns of Agreement. Since the main reason for thinking the Gospels share a common source is their verbatium agreements, it makes sense to examine the nature of these agreements in order to decide which of the books was used by the other two. If you were to make a detailed comparison of the word-for-word agreements among these Gospels, and interesting pattern would emerge. Sometimes all three of the Gospels tell a story precisely the same way. This can easily be accounted for; it would happen whenever two of the authors borrowed their account from the earliest one. and neither of them changed it. Sometimes all three Gospels differ. This would happen whenever the two authors who borrowed the story each changed it, in different ways. Finally, sometimes two of the three are exactly alike, but the third differs. This would occur when both of the later authors borrowed the story but only one of them changed it; in this case one of the redactors would agree with the wording of his source, and the other would not.
In this final kind of situation, certain patterns of agreement typically occur among the Synoptic Gospels. Sometimes Matthew and Mark share the wording of a story when Luke differs, and sometimes Mark and Luke share the wording when Matthew differs. But it is very rare to find Matthew and Luke sharing the wording of a story when Mark differs. Why would this be?
If Matthew were the source for for Mark and Luke, or Luke were the source for Matthew and Mark, you would probably not get this pattern. Look at it like this: if, as I am arguing, both Matthew and Luke used Mark, then sometimes they would reproduce the same wording. That's why all three sometimes agree. Sometimes they would both change the wording for reasons of their own. That's why all three sometimes differ. Sometimes Matthew would change Marks account while Luke left it the same. That's why Mark and Luke sometimes agree against Matthew. And sometimes Luke would change Mark's account when Matthew left it the same. That's why Matthew and Mark sometimes agree against Luke.
The reason then that Matthew and Luke rarely agree against Mark in the wording of stories found in all three is the source for these stories. Unless Matthew and Luke accidentally happen to make precisely the same changes in their source (which does happen on occasion, but not commonly and not in major ways), they cannot both differ from the source and agree with one another. The fact that the rarely do differ from Mark while agreeing with one another indicates that Mark must have been the source.
You may be relieved to recall that we are not going to worry about the complexities of the problem
Copied from the book The NEW TESTAMENT A HISTORICAL INTRODUCTION TO THE EARLY CHRISTIAN WRITINGS Fourth Edition Bart D. Ehrman Published by Oxford University Press Copyright ©️ by Bart D. Ehrman 2000, 2004, 2008.

This is one part of three but it's almost 0200 hrs. here and I have to be up at 0800 so I'm going to quit for the night. Dave, if you need more evidence let me know and I'll continue this.
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

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