Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

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Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:22 am

Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby, espousing a purely mythological view of Jesus, suggests that in the New Testament, the name "Judas" was constructed as an attack on the Judaeans or on the Judaean religious establishment held responsible for executing Christ.[30] The English word "Jew" is derived from the Latin Iudaeus, which, like the Greek Ιουδαίος (Ioudaios), could also mean "Judaean". In the Gospel of John, the original writer or a later editor may have tried to draw a parallel between Judas, Judaea, and the Judaeans (or Jews) in verses 6:70-7:1, which run like this in the King James Bible:

6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

In Greek, the earliest extant language of the Gospels, the words Judas — Jewry — Jews run like this: Ιούδας (Ioudas) — Ιουδαία (Ioudaia) — Ιουδαίοι (Ioudaioi). Whatever the original intentions of the original writers or editors of the Gospel of John, however, some argue that the similarity between the name "Judas" and the words for "Jew" in various European languages has helped facilitate anti-Semitism.

(source)

So what were the odds that the main villain in the story just happened to have the same name as the whole province/tribe that collaborated (to a degree) to have him executed, (over all) rejected him as the Messiah and was trying to fight the new sect (proto-Christianity)?

Jerusalem also is located in Judah, not Galilee, so it was the Judeans (or at least the Judean authorities) that helped the Romans kill Jesus.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:37 am

Judas was a very common name at the time
Jesus had a brother named Judas, more than one disciple named Judas.

Mt 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Lu 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Ac 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. {obeyed: or, believed}
Ac 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Ac 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Ac 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:00 am

Davelaw wrote:Judas was a very common name at the time
Jesus had a brother named Judas, more than one disciple named Judas.

Mt 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Lu 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Ac 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. {obeyed: or, believed}
Ac 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Ac 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Ac 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

So what? It was common BEFORE Jesus was crucified. Therefore your argument is totally irrelevant. It doesn't address the actual point.

And so you're saying that it was PURE COINCIDENCE that the main villain of the story had a name that could be seen, or interpreted, as the whole of the people who rejected 'the Messiah' and were responsible for his death?

You agree that this case could not be made as easily if the main villain had been called, let's say, Matthew?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Ken on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:47 pm

Celsus wrote:And so you're saying that it was PURE COINCIDENCE that the main villain of the story had a name that could be seen, or interpreted, as the whole of the people who rejected 'the Messiah' and were responsible for his death?

It's suggestive, but as Judas was a common name the resemblance could indeed have been coincidental. I'm not sure how one would go about firming up the suggestion into something more substantial.
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:51 pm

Ken wrote:
Celsus wrote:And so you're saying that it was PURE COINCIDENCE that the main villain of the story had a name that could be seen, or interpreted, as the whole of the people who rejected 'the Messiah' and were responsible for his death?

It's suggestive, but as Judas was a common name the resemblance could indeed have been coincidental. I'm not sure how one would go about firming up the suggestion into something more substantial.

Of course it COULD be. But quite the coincidence, no? Wink

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:53 pm

given that Q (read Matthew and Mark) were penned by the Jewish Christian church about a century before the final rift-I think the argument is specious.
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:59 pm

Davelaw wrote:given that Q (read Matthew and Mark) were penned by the Jewish Christian church about a century before the final rift-I think the argument is specious.

The rift was there more or less from the start, according to the Gospels and Acts.

And what's the evidence that Paul knew THAT version of Q?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:59 pm

Davelaw wrote:given that Q (read Matthew and Mark) were penned by the Jewish Christian church about a century before the final rift-I think the argument is specious.

And so you're saying that it was PURE COINCIDENCE that the main villain of the story had a name that could be seen, or interpreted, as the whole of the people who rejected 'the Messiah' and were responsible for his death?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:01 pm

yup, it several centuries before anyone even picked up on that interpretation
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:05 pm

Davelaw wrote:yup, it several centuries before anyone even picked up on that interpretation

wow, what where the odds then!!! Shocked Rolling Eyes

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:10 pm

our you suggesting other people such as Judas the Hammer were fictional characters whose purpose was to put the Jewish people in a positive light- i thought not-it's funny how your arguments only work one way

and what are the odds that of all the people named Judas in the NT that one of them would be the villian-considering it was the most popular name at the time? I wonder?
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:17 pm

Davelaw wrote:our you suggesting other people such as Judas the Hammer were fictional characters whose purpose was to put the Jewish people in a positive light- i thought not-it's funny how your arguments only work one way

and what are the odds that of all the people named Judas in the NT that one of them would be the villian-considering it was the most popular name at the time? I wonder?

What does Judas the Hammer have to do with this? He lived BEFORE. And I've never denied that the name was popular.

There also aren't THAT many people called Judas in the NT. And the Jews obviously had a lot of other names.

And now there are these twelve guys hanging around with Jesus, and ONE of them is called Judas. And exactly this one Judas, with a name that could easily represent the Jews (and actually did afterwards), in the group is the main villain?

Wow. The odds!?

And by the way, what where the odds that Jesus' main apostle was called The Rock? Laughing

Geez, this story is so obviously manufactured.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:19 pm

two of Jesus's diisciples plus a brother
plus three guys in the early church-it is the most popular name in the NT
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:19 pm

two of them are called Judas
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:22 pm

and Simon's nickname was Cephas which is closer to the name of a town in Arkansas than Dwane Johnson's wrestling persona.
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:29 pm

Davelaw wrote:two of them are called Judas

Which one? Quote please.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:30 pm

Davelaw wrote:and Simon's nickname was Cephas which is closer to the name of a town in Arkansas than Dwane Johnson's wrestling persona.

Peter allegedly was called, uh, Peter (the rock), even before Jesus met him ... what a coincidence again! Shocked

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:33 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:and Simon's nickname was Cephas which is closer to the name of a town in Arkansas than Dwane Johnson's wrestling persona.

Peter allegedly was called, uh, Peter (the rock), even before Jesus met him ... what a coincidence again! Shocked

give me the passage you are refering to- i know the scripture where Jesus names Cephas but don't of a passage that says that had always been his nickname
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:37 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:and Simon's nickname was Cephas which is closer to the name of a town in Arkansas than Dwane Johnson's wrestling persona.

Peter allegedly was called, uh, Peter (the rock), even before Jesus met him ... what a coincidence again! Shocked

give me the passage you are refering to- i know the scripture where Jesus names Cephas but don't of a passage that says that had always been his nickname

Matt 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

That sounds like Simon was already called Peter at the time. Since the story is just now INTRODUCING the two characters.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:40 pm

Also Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw [it], he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

and

John 1:4 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:41 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:two of them are called Judas

Which one? Quote please.

Lu 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:48 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:two of them are called Judas

Which one? Quote please.

Lu 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Ok. It's still convenient though.

And Mark by the way, the earliest Gospel writer, only mentions ONE Judas.

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:49 pm

funny, the early church fathers say Matthew was first
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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Davelaw wrote:funny, the early church fathers say Matthew was first

And their evidence is ... ?

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Re: Was 'Judas' intended to represent 'the Jews'?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:59 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:and Simon's nickname was Cephas which is closer to the name of a town in Arkansas than Dwane Johnson's wrestling persona.

Peter allegedly was called, uh, Peter (the rock), even before Jesus met him ... what a coincidence again! Shocked

give me the passage you are refering to- i know the scripture where Jesus names Cephas but don't of a passage that says that had always been his nickname

Matt 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

That sounds like Simon was already called Peter at the time. Since the story is just now INTRODUCING the two characters.

now who is making assumptions? read a little further to the entire list and it specifically says that Jesus called Simon, Peter
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