Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:45 am

No, no, the editors knew exactly the message that they wished to present (remember all those votes and things being put in and put out? if you have doubts of that do go on line and look at the world's oldest bible) and that changed from generation to generation. Who was in power at the time was who got to decide what was included and what was not. Now you could say that Yahweh was jerking their strings and they were merely his puppets, if you like. Dance puppet dance! It is a trap many Christians fall into, rather than watch the ebb and flow of politics at work.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:51 am

those are myths-every book but two that became canon were quoted in letters by Christians within the first 150 years of the Church
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:53 am

The whole thing is a collection of myths. I would like you to tell me a story from your great-great-great-grandfather (or however many) from 150 years ago and please quote his exact words, will you?

And then try to prove it. They are myths and that is not a bad word. They are stories that teach lessons and are important to your religion. It doesn't matter if it happened the way that is recorded it did or not. That is not the important part of a myth.

Ed to add: Oh and there were plenty of others just as old that were once included yes?

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:59 am

gillyflower wrote:The whole thing is a collection of myths. I would like you to tell me a story from your great-great-great-grandfather (or however many) from 150 years ago and please quote his exact words, will you?

And then try to prove it. They are myths and that is not a bad word. They are stories that teach lessons and are important to your religion. It doesn't matter if it happened the way that is recorded it did or not. That is not the important part of a myth.

thats easy we have letters in czech from that time

the family legends we divide over go back over 500 years

are we descended from royalty? Vyborny can mean elected Gorge of Podebrady was the last elected king

were our ancestors Jewish? Vyborny can also mean Chosen people

was our immediate ancestor the best landmanager the Jesuits ever had? Vyborny can also mean excellent
the founder of our line was a land manager for the Jesuits as it made him exempt from Church attendence and free to organize his underground evangelical movement
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:00 am

gillyflower wrote:The whole thing is a collection of myths. I would like you to tell me a story from your great-great-great-grandfather (or however many) from 150 years ago and please quote his exact words, will you?

And then try to prove it. They are myths and that is not a bad word. They are stories that teach lessons and are important to your religion. It doesn't matter if it happened the way that is recorded it did or not. That is not the important part of a myth.

Ed to add: Oh and there were plenty of others just as old that were once included yes?

No, the ones not included are younger than the originals
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:08 am

Have you looked at the dates assigned to early Christian writings recently? There are several that are assumed to be just as early and the others are assumed to be.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:11 am

the closest would be the Gospel of Thomas

which is after the synoptics but might be before the GOJ

in one of the rare times that I agree with Pagels, I think the GOJ is in part a repudiation of the Gospel of thomas which expalins why it wasn't included in the Canon
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:15 am

Cherry picking at it's finest.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:39 am

The book of Revelation has been voted in..and out...and in...and out... now it's back in again. (Martin Luther put it out!). Frankly I wish it would stay out, because it's the book that seems to really inspire the nutjobs and cult whackos.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:44 am

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:The book of Revelation has been voted in..and out...and in...and out... now it's back in again. (Martin Luther put it out!). Frankly I wish it would stay out, because it's the book that seems to really inspire the nutjobs and cult whackos.

Luther wanted to remove the Epistle of James, Esther, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation; but didn't.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:55 am

The thing about Revelation is that, until it is proven wrong, it will continue to be taught, . . . and people will believe that it holds future events. It is when you look at it with a logical mind that you realize that it is a book that is PACKED with so much metaphor, that no one can ever claim its true meaning, therefore nothing that anyone believes about it [the events to come] should even BE doctrine. It's one thing to have a doctrine of a "savior dying for sins, and ressurecting 3 days later", . . . . quite another to say that there will even BE an "anti-christ."

I don't believe God to be one who transcends time. I don't believe there is anywhere in the bible that states that, and evidence against it, actually.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 am

DeavonReye wrote:

I don't believe God to be one who transcends time. I don't believe there is anywhere in the bible that states that, and evidence against it, actually.

can you state the evidence against? How could a God that imprisoned by time be any kind of God?
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TPaine on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:20 pm

Davelaw wrote:agreed except for the last part

number one
even secular scholars don't speak of apocalyptic literature as prophecy that failed to come true but as the message of the persecuted disguised as prophetic language

number two

I've never been shy about admiting that my pov is from a literalist inerrantist perspective; so how does what i said previously accord with that perspective

i believe that scripture is often dual in purpose-with a meaning for the intended audience and then a broader meaning which only becomes clear over the recesses of time

that why I can affirm that Isaiah was speaking to Ahaz about current events and prophesying about a coming Messiah

or why I think the Revelator was speaking to seven actual Asian churches and prophetical dividing the future Church into seven distinct types with the predominant type now bwing the Last where christians think they are well-off and don't see their own spiritual poverty

Another hint that it was written for the generation alive when it was written can be found in chapter 13 verse 18. "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (NIV) As you probably know, in ancient numeral systems numbers were written by using letters, and conversely, any combination of letters could yield a numerical total. Anyone knowing about gematria would realize that the author was using 666 to identify a person's name. An interesting twist to this verse is that some of the ancient Greek manuscripts use the number 616 rather than 666.
What does this all mean? It's not impossible to believe that the beast in chapter 17 is the same as the beast in chapter 13. The heads represent the rulers of the empire. One head was mortally wounded, but rose again. A group of ancient Jewish books called the Sybillin Oracles predict that Emperor Caesar Nero would return from the dead to wreck havoc on the earth. In 85 CE he was known as the greatest persecutor of Christians in history to that time, having blamed them for burning Rome. OK, if you're still with me, if you spell the name "Caesar Nero" in Hebrew it comes out Neron. The numerical total of Caesar Neron is 666. If you drop the final n, the numerical total is 616.
Sorry, Dave, but I see no prophesy for the 21st century, but only for the 1st and perhaps the early 2nd. The Western Roman Empire fell in 476 CE, the Eastern Empire in 1453 CE. Nero ain't coming back, folks.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:52 pm

You are missing a key focus of the Book

the apostacy of Imperial Christians-those Christians that thought that it was ok to burn incense to the emperor

they won and became the basis for the instituional Church-so in a way the woman riding the beast has been active for 1800 years
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TPaine on Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:37 pm

Davelaw wrote:You are missing a key focus of the Book

the apostacy of Imperial Christians-those Christians that thought that it was ok to burn incense to the emperor

they won and became the basis for the instituional Church-so in a way the woman riding the beast has been active for 1800 years

Are you speaking of Constantine and those who have held the Papacy?
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:35 am

those were certainly the heirs to the legacy

but in larger sense any who combined the church with temporal power

that forgot Jesus' words "my kingdom is not of this world"
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Ken on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:19 pm

Davelaw wrote:You are missing a key focus of the Book

the apostacy of Imperial Christians-those Christians that thought that it was ok to burn incense to the emperor

they won and became the basis for the instituional Church-so in a way the woman riding the beast has been active for 1800 years
As a Christian, you owe those "apostates" an immense debt of gratitude. If they hadn't swallowed their scruples and burnt the incense, thereby avoiding extermination, Christianity would not have survived.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:21 pm

doubtful; since my people have always been the ones persecuted by them
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Ken on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:32 pm

Davelaw wrote:doubtful; since my people have always been the ones persecuted by them

What on earth does that mean?

Christianity survived because during times of persecution most Christians did whatever was necessary to avoid the death penalty. Those who had money hid themselves in the countryside, bribed officials, or purchased forged certificates of sacrifice. The relatively poor majority simply performed the required sacrifice. Had it not been for them, Christianity would be remembered today as an extinct religion of martyrs.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:50 pm

Donatists, Paulicians, Hussites, Moravians, Anabaptists

my people have always been on the outside looking in
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:28 pm

JJ...to answer you question: Yes, your exactly right. Thats where the fire & brimstone continues. Repent, & live right outwardly, convert the unchristian ones (heathen) for you may be right with god & be favored to receive a # pass to gain entrance! Thats why all the church bashing continues today. Has nothing to do with spirituality.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TPaine on Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:44 pm

Davelaw wrote:doubtful; since my people have always been the ones persecuted by them

I certainly hope you're not saying that Christians are being persecuted in the US, Dave. It's Christians like the Dobsons that have turned the non-sectarian congressionally mandated day National Day of Prayer:
The National Day of Prayer was established as an annual event
in 1952 by a joint resolution of the United States Congress and signed
into law by President Harry S. Truman. The observance of the National
Day of Prayer is founded on the constitutional rights of freedom of
speech and freedom of religion and can be celebrated by all Americans.
http://www.ndptf.org/about/index_13.cfm

into a Christian celebration where people who hold others beliefs are reluctantly allowed to show up but are almost never allowed to speak and are not allowed to become coordinators of the event. In fact, the Dobson mandated coordinator application besides asking for name, address, employment information, church membership information and references, also includes the following:
Official Policy Statement on Participation of "Non-Judeo-Christian" groups in the National Day of Prayer: The National Day of Prayer Task Force was a creation of the National Prayer Committee for the expressed purpose of organizing and promoting prayer observances conforming to a Judeo-Christian system of values. People with other theological and philosophical views are, of course, free to organize and participate in activities that are consistent with their own beliefs. This diversity is what Congress intended when it designated the Day of Prayer, not that every faith and creed would be homogenized, but that all who sought to pray for this nation would be encouraged to do so in any way deemed appropriate. It is that broad invitation to the American people that led, in our case, to the creation of the Task Force and the Judeo-Christian principles on which it is based. Statement of Belief: I believe that the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of The Living God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only One by which I can obtain salvation and have an ongoing relationship with God. I believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, his virgin birth, his sinless life, his miracles, the atoning work of his shed blood, his resurrection and ascension, his intercession and his coming return to power and glory. I believe that those who follow Jesus are family and there should be unity among all who claim his name. I agree that these statements are true in my life. National Day of Prayer Volunteer Program Commitment Coordinator Qualifications
I. We would hope that each coordinator would maintain active involvement in a local church body as we believe this should be a person's first ministry priority.
II. In both public and private life, we ask that you demonstrate the commitment you have made to Jesus Christ in the following areas: spiritual maturity, emotional stability, healthy personal relationships, financial responsibility, and a stable living situation
III. We would request that coordinators adhere to the guidelines and philosophy that undergirds the National Day of Prayer Task Force. As a Judeo-Christian expression of the National Day of Prayer, our mission is to provide support and resources that enable the planning of and participation in events that reflect these beliefs. If other people of other faiths wish to celebrate in their own traditions, they are welcome to do so.
IV. We would ask that you set aside sufficient time for the work of the NDP Task Force in your state. This commitment varies greatly depending upon the number of our volunteers who report to you the activities planned.
Yes
No
V. It is our desire that each volunteer would be dedicated to the teamwork model of the NDP Task Force and to the completion of their assigned duties. Our Task Force staff provides ongoing support and information and in return requests that volunteers agree to specific tasks and time schedules so that we can ensure successful events in May.
VI. We would hope that the new volunteers joining us would share in the legacy of those before them who would have shown a passionate devotion to advancing Christ's Kingdom and the cause of prayer in our nation. As true volunteers, those who partner with us have earned our great admiration for their sacrificial work. They are the backbone of our ministry and labor diligently for God's glory, without any expectation of early pay, recognition, or compensation.
Having read the above statements, I am in agreement with the principles and guidelines mentioned and will subscribe to them as a volunteer. As part of my application process, I also authorize the references listed above to provide the National Day of Prayer Task Force with any pertinent information requested.
Further, I release all parties from all liability for any damage that may result from use of such information by the Task Force. I agree to utilize and follow copyright usage of the NDP Task Force promotional materials to 1) perpetuate the annual theme and national media opportunities and 2) ensure a strong, consistent Christian message throughout the nation. I commit that NDP activities I serve with will be conducted solely by Christians while those with differing beliefs are welcome to attend. Finally, I understand that the National Day of Prayer Task Force regards this volunteer relationship as a mutual one that can be terminated at any time by either party without notice and without cause. Applicants Signature: ______________________________ Date ______________ * if submitting via email- type name above and click the "e-signature" button here
e-signature
http://media1.ndptf.org/ndptf/downloads/volunteer%20app.pdf

In the US, Dave, Christians are more often the persecutors than the persecuted. Idiots like David Barton, with no degree in history but a vivid imagination and connections to both Christian Reconstructionists and the Christian Identity movement has been appointed to a committee to evaluate the social studies text books used in Texas public schools, by the Religious Reich appointees of Governor Rick "Secessionist" Perry. Will the students in Texas now be taught the bogus quotes Barton attributed to our Founding Fathers in his book The Myth of Separation are actually fact? Also appointed to the committee was Rev. Peter Marshall a wingnut from Massachusetts who claims that the California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were divine punishment for tolerance of homosexuality.
http://www.tfn.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5778

The problem with these appointments is that many smaller states follow the lead of large states such as California and Texas when it comes to public school textbooks for economic reasons.
If Christians theocrats don't want to be thought of as power-hungry usurpers who claim to be persecuted, they should stop their attempts to impose their beliefs on everyone else.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by MaineCaptain on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:18 pm

Nice piece TPaine

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:20 pm

Razz What T Paine says is true about the smaller states following the big ones. Here in LA, (a poor state, economically, educationally, & socially) doesn't have the funds or the focus to pick themselves up by the bootstraps unless we lean on & watch our big neighbor state TX!

So other than Katrina, all the other hurricanes including our dear sweet RITA on the SW LA side (month later) were man made? Shocked

See what type of BS these people rally behind? Says a lot about ignorance in these United States, doesn't it? They're not just happy with splitting us religiously but from North to South, East to West, Red or Blue states, they have to infringe upon if we're coast or mountain dwellers, desert or lake dwellers. When will the nit picking stop?
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:09 pm

TPaine wrote:
Davelaw wrote:doubtful; since my people have always been the ones persecuted by them

I certainly hope you're not saying that Christians are being persecuted in the US, Dave.

i gave you a partial list of the groups my ancestors belonged to-now how did you get persecution in the US out of that?
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