Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

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Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by jumbojava on Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:14 pm

NOTE: 'God-damned' is not a cuss word here.

I am using it as the opposite for 'god-blessed'; those chosen by the Christian god to go to its heaven.

Here's my thinking:

There are some who believe that long before any are born the Christian god has already chosen who it will let into heaven and who it will not. Those that it has dilibertly chosen for heaven the Christian god has blessed their hearts and thus now they hear and know god and can understand the bible.

My thought is this: If that is true then the opposite is also true: that there are souls that the Christian god has dilibertly chosen to remain un-blessed; thus in essense they are -for a lack of any other label- god-damned.

This for me has reduced the non-Christian as nothing more than foder for the Christian god where it uses the god-damned as something akin to feeder fish for its priced champion stock of souls.

IOW's the birth and life of a god-damned non-Christian is next to if not worthless. If the Christian god has no intention of letting them into heaven and has already rejected them before birth, then why let them be born in the first place?

What possible use for a non-Christian does the Christian god have other than playthings and tools to train its chosen prized herd of god-blessed Christian souls?

Comments?
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:02 pm

While there may still be some Christians who believe in pre-destination, I'm guessing that they represent a very small percentage of Christians these days. I'm unaware that any such belief has ever included the thinking that only these chosen ones "hear and know god and can understand the bible." From the Protestant Reformation onward, being able to read so that a person could read the Bible became increasingly important among Protestant Christians.

Incidentally, belief in pre-destination historically included Christians. The religion of the Puritans who settled Plymouth Colony held that one could never know until after death whether or not you were of "the elect" or those who would get into heaven.

Gradually, the harshness of this belief came to be modified by the insistence that one must accept Jesus and be "saved" in order to get into heaven, thereby making heaven open to anyone who did so.

The Unitarian church was formed in the early 19th century, incidentally, as a direct objection to the Calvinist belief in pre-destination. Thus, the old joke among UU's that the Unitarians believe themselves too good to be damned while the Universalists believe that God is too good to damn anyone.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:07 pm

I can buy that the Christian deity has chosen, or even will choose those who it will let into it's hall, I do not buy that the Christian deity has the scope that it is described as having.

As such, I don't feel it is as black and white as blessed v damned.

all
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TPaine on Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:28 pm

Dot,
Calvinism is still alive and well in the US. There are several Presbyterian sects that still hold such views, the largest being the Presbyterian Church in America. They follow the Westminster Confession of Faith which includes the Five Points of Calvinism.
Other distinctives are the doctrines of grace, which depict what God has done for mankind’s salvation: (1) Total depravity of man. Man is completely incapable within himself to reach out towards God. Man is totally at enmity with God, cf. Romans 3:10-23. (2) Unconditional election by the grace of God. There is absolutely no condition in any person for which God would save him. As a matter of fact, long before man was created, God chose or predestined some to everlasting life. He did this out of His mere good pleasure, cf. Ephesians 1:4 and 5. (3) Particular atonement. God in His infinite mercy, in order to accomplish the planned redemption, sent His own Son, Jesus Christ, to die as a substitute for the sins of a large but specific number of people, cf. Romans 8:29 and 30. (4) The irresistible grace of God. This is the effectual work of the Holy Spirit moving upon a particular person whom He has called, applying the work of redemption, cf. John 3:5 and 6. (5) The perseverance of the saints. This is that gracious work of God’s sanctification whereby He enables a saved person to persevere to the end. Even though the process of sanctification is not complete in this life, from God’s perspective it is as good as accomplished, cf. Romans 8:30, 38, and 39, and Philippians 1:6.
(Highlights added)
http://www.pcanet.org/general/history.htm

What I can't understand is why people who believes that God choses who will be saved and that we have no say in the matter believe in evangelism. It seems to me that it would be a waste of time if salvation is predetermined.

BTW, Calvinist Presbyterians especially PCA are leaders in the Christian Reconstructionist movement. Some examples would be; The late R.J. Rushdoony, Gary North, Gary DeMar, and the late D. James Kennedy who you may know as the former pastor of the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, founder of the Coral Ridge Hour TV show, and member of the National Religious Broadcasters Hall of Fame.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:39 pm

Thanks for that info, TPaine.

I had no idea that Calvinism was still that predominant obviously.
A couple of those names sound familiar but not more than that. What I know about Presbyterianism would have plenty of wiggle room among Billy Graham's angels dancing on the head of a pin, truth be told.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:50 pm

jumbojava wrote:NOTE: 'God-damned' is not a cuss word here.

I am using it as the opposite for 'god-blessed'; those chosen by the Christian god to go to its heaven.

Here's my thinking:

There are some who believe that long before any are born the Christian god has already chosen who it will let into heaven and who it will not. Those that it has dilibertly chosen for heaven the Christian god has blessed their hearts and thus now they hear and know god and can understand the bible.

My thought is this: If that is true then the opposite is also true: that there are souls that the Christian god has dilibertly chosen to remain un-blessed; thus in essense they are -for a lack of any other label- god-damned.

This for me has reduced the non-Christian as nothing more than foder for the Christian god where it uses the god-damned as something akin to feeder fish for its priced champion stock of souls.

IOW's the birth and life of a god-damned non-Christian is next to if not worthless. If the Christian god has no intention of letting them into heaven and has already rejected them before birth, then why let them be born in the first place?

What possible use for a non-Christian does the Christian god have other than playthings and tools to train its chosen prized herd of god-blessed Christian souls?

Comments?

I can answer some of the having been a Presbyterian in various locations. I was never PCA: they are a different kettle of fish entirely and yes they have spawned some bible thumper Evangelicals.

I was taught that yes, only a certain amount are going to heaven, but on the other hand no one I knew claimed to know how many that was. That was up to Yahweh and no one claimed to be able to read his mind. No one I knew thought that everyone else was going to hell. If Yahweh was a good and just god, he would not do that. It was explained to me that it was all about the "my father's house, there are many rooms." The select went one place by Yahweh's will, the other's also went to different places as he so willed. Or at least this was according to my parents. And why would other people want to go to Yahweh's heaven, anyway?

This was one of the reasons that my sort of Presbyterian didn't believe in proselytizing. What if you convinced someone to join up and they didn't make the cut? That was unethical. It was also believed that anyone Yahweh wanted, he was more than powerful enough to make that happen himself.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:29 pm

I've seen this idea of predestination versed not as God has chosen who is damned and saved, but rather only after "receiving the spirit of God" (which spurns one on to accept the "free gift of salvation").

Which is odd, because most Christians I have spoken with (mostly conservative types) state that the choice to accept salvation was one humans alone had.

It seems to be a bit of a catch 22 in their theology, either their God is in total control and it is his will that people are saved, negating the choice, or their God is not in total control, and humans have a choice.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:41 pm

It was put to me that Yahweh has total choice over who he wants but then people have the right to say no.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:08 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:Thanks for that info, TPaine.

I had no idea that Calvinism was still that predominant obviously.
A couple of those names sound familiar but not more than that. What I know about Presbyterianism would have plenty of wiggle room among Billy Graham's angels dancing on the head of a pin, truth be told.

I have a Calvinist missionary cousin (mission trips to Russia & Ukraine), and one branch of my family is Calvinist Presby.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:45 am

jumbojava wrote:NOTE: 'God-damned' is not a cuss word here.

I am using it as the opposite for 'god-blessed'; those chosen by the Christian god to go to its heaven.

Here's my thinking:

There are some who believe that long before any are born the Christian god has already chosen who it will let into heaven and who it will not. Those that it has dilibertly chosen for heaven the Christian god has blessed their hearts and thus now they hear and know god and can understand the bible.

My thought is this: If that is true then the opposite is also true: that there are souls that the Christian god has dilibertly chosen to remain un-blessed; thus in essense they are -for a lack of any other label- god-damned.

This for me has reduced the non-Christian as nothing more than foder for the Christian god where it uses the god-damned as something akin to feeder fish for its priced champion stock of souls.

IOW's the birth and life of a god-damned non-Christian is next to if not worthless. If the Christian god has no intention of letting them into heaven and has already rejected them before birth, then why let them be born in the first place?

What possible use for a non-Christian does the Christian god have other than playthings and tools to train its chosen prized herd of god-blessed Christian souls?

Comments?

as others have said this is really a minority position

Hyper 5 point Calvinism isn't truly practiced even by those who historically believed it

I have heard preachers in my circle talk about the door that says "whosoever will may come" on the outside and says "you have chosen from the foundation of the world" on the inside

I have a different solution-that deals with many being confused as to who was being addressed when the 'the elect: is even mentioned and do not think it has any thing to do with God choosing the saved and the damned
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by DotNotInOz on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:34 am

Davelaw wrote:

as others have said this is really a minority position

Hyper 5 point Calvinism isn't truly practiced even by those who historically believed it

Which a bit of googling indicates is not true.

Calvin's own words--pretty clearcut, IMO: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/calvin-predest.html

One of several sources supporting the belief in contemporary Christian sects: http://www.allaboutgod.com/predestination.htm

I have a different solution-that deals with many being confused as to who was being addressed when the 'the elect: is even mentioned and do not think it has any thing to do with God choosing the saved and the damned

I'd say you're mistaken then, Dave, because various sources I read indicate contemporary adherence to the classic position--that God chooses only certain people for heaven, and we cannot know in life who is or isn't among them.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:42 am

then I wasn't clear

many groups SAY they Believe it; but if they really did -they would have ceased all efforts to perpetuate themselves-therefore they don't really believe the doctrine because they don't relie totally on God to choose their numners
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:06 am

Well, the people I went to church with didn't try to convert others, like I said. They really did rely on Yahweh to do his own recruiting. Anyone who came to church was welcome. If you didn't, that was your business.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:19 am

you can still make an effort to self perpetuate without actual recruiting

did they budget?, pay their bills?, buy land? ect... yes, i'm being slightly ridiculous to illustrate a point

but if God dictates everything; than we should do nothing


and its all based on ignorance the terms in scripture: who is being addressed when the elect is mentioned?
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:23 am

Yes, you are being slightly ridiculous. Smile

If God dictates everything then we are puppets, not that we should do nothing. That is not a logical sequence. The logical sequence is that we do nothing that God has not already foreseen that we will do. He's like a person who has skipped to the end of the book - he knows what is going to happen.

But it really is two concepts. One is - does God dictate everything that we do? The other is - does God know what we are going to do before we do it? The two don't have to both be true.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:24 am

Along with the idea that 5-point Calvanist are "missing the point" if they send missionaries, . . . the idea that YOU have been chosen is rather arrogant. Who could ever say that, even though they live and believe it all, hook line and sinker, . . . they actually HAVE been chosen? Not knowing the mind of God, no one could ever make that claim on God's behalf, . . . even if they truly believe they have, . . . .even based on their "strong christian walk". They may very well have NOT been chosen, and all their prudish behavior and "work for the kingdon" would be nothing more than a waste of their life. I doubt that many of them think on these things, though, but rather walk under a possible false assumption.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:26 am

Well, for me it sort of translates to my signature (and see how much my particular Christian upbringing impacts me even now?)

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:28 am

neither have to be true

God can knowevery possible out come and still allow for free will; by not knowing which outcome is actually chosen-which would explain why so much of the Bible is spent trying to persuade people to choose a certain path
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:30 am

Free will is not negated by God knowing what the outcome will be. It simply means that he knows what the person will choose to do before the person does it. That doesn't touch a person's free will to make the choice.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:39 am

gillyflower wrote:Free will is not negated by God knowing what the outcome will be. It simply means that he knows what the person will choose to do before the person does it. That doesn't touch a person's free will to make the choice.

that depends; if God is the triple omni

He could manipulate time and space to insure the outcome-instead scripture portrays Him as persuading or attempting to
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:49 am

He could do that. Perhaps he doesn't like to do the former for the same reason some people don't cheat at computer games. They like to win fair and square.

What I wonder about the god I'm describing is why he isn't totally bored with the game.

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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by jumbojava on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:58 am

gillyflower wrote:He could do that. Perhaps he doesn't like to do the former for the same reason some people don't cheat at computer games. They like to win fair and square.

What I wonder about the god I'm describing is why he isn't totally bored with the game.

Cuz playing with the fate of souls is kewl....?
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by TPaine on Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:18 pm

Davelaw wrote:
as others have said this is really a minority position

Hyper 5 point Calvinism isn't truly practiced even by those who historically believed it

I have heard preachers in my circle talk about the door that says "whosoever will may come" on the outside and says "you have chosen from the foundation of the world" on the inside

I have a different solution-that deals with many being confused as to who was being addressed when the 'the elect: is even mentioned and do not think it has any thing to do with God choosing the saved and the damned

I have to disagree with you Dave. My father-in-law belonged to a Primitive Baptist Church in Southwestern Virginia whose Statement of Faith include the TULIP doctrine derived from the Synod of Dort in 1618-19.
TULIP was the abbreviation of the 5 points of Calvinism which are:
T: This usually stands for "Total depravity:" This is often mistaken to mean that humans
are all hopelessly, intensely sinful. Actually, it means something quite
different: as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God -- the Fall
of Man -- sin has extended to all parts of every person's being: "his
thinking, his emotions and his will
."
U: This stands for "Unconditional Election." This is
the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two
groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has
chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain
ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are damned and will spend eternity
in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures.
God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before
any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the
lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good
works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge
to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not.
L: This stands for "Limited
atonement
"
or "Particular Redemption." This is the belief that Jesus did not die
to save all humans. He only died for the sake of specific sins of those
sinners who are saved.
I: This stands for "Irresistible Grace:"
This is the belief that every human whom God has elected will inevitably come to a
knowledge of God. The elect cannot resist the call.
P: This stands for "Perseverance of the
saints
:" This is the "Once saved, always
saved
" belief -- that everyone who has been
saved will
remain in that state. God will begin and continue a process of
sanctification which will continue until they reach heaven. None are lost;
it is impossible for them to lose their salvation.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm

He and all the members of his church and several other churches in the area totally believed in this concept. Obviously the statement that "Hyper 5 point Calvinism isn't truly practiced even by those who historically believed it," is false, at least in one case I'm personally familiar with. When Papaw was in the hospital with pneumonia on top of his black lung and we all though he was terminal, and his son-in-law (not me) who goes to Thomas Road Baptist Church told him not to worry, he was saved, was told in no uncertain terms, that we have no way of knowing that. It is in God's hands as to whose name is written in the book of life and we have not seen the book. BTW, he lived several more years before dying in a car accident on the way to his grandson's wedding.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:36 pm

Smile Hey, lady! I understand where your coming from. I too never understood, all the "ritual" prerequisites, or the # thing!

Even being raised Catholic, with the whole "baptism" ritual. BTW, yours truly was baptized twice! Immediately after I was born (in case I died), & then @ 4months old (after coming out of hospital, finally). Just because you were baptized didn't mean you were a shoe in for heaven. What I didn't understand, was the purgatory place, (a place where ones' soul went until the day of judgment). This holding area included the way ward, the unknowing, (non Christians) along with babies & children. Personally I never believed in such a place, & neither did my family...(something made up by man). Maybe it was a poor attempt of Summer land? Stolen from Pagan beliefs?
On the other hand, where I live now, there are A LOT of Christians & Jehovah witness, that attach a # to how many will get into heaven, & walk the golden streets of heaven on high. I just don't see the sense of all this. Its like Christians calling Jews "Gods chosen people." Well? WTF? Where does that leave the rest of the world? But the way "religion" is going nowadays...I can very easily see where all this "I'M better than you.""I know more than you." "You need MY guidance." This type of "belief" system breeds self centered, brain washed, be like me, talk like me, act like me, BUT I know your NOT me, & won't get chosen. To me this mind set, steeped in religion breeds a bunch of hating, poor souls.
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Re: Non-Christians = Feeder Fish for the God-Damned.

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:43 pm

Why does heaven have golden streets? That is not my idea of any heaven, not even when I believed in one.

I know off topic, but it annoys me. Rolling Eyes

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