Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:17 am

i've got good software
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:22 am

Davelaw wrote:i've got good software

then what takes you so long?? Wink

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:26 am

I'm conservative
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:36 am

Davelaw wrote:I'm conservative

That's an excuse for being slow? Wink

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:57 am

they can be synomyns

conservative, deliberate, cautious
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:06 am

Davelaw wrote:they can be synomyns

conservative, deliberate, cautious

Ok, anyway. I'm looking forward to your conclusion Smile

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:21 am

preliminary

just dealing with the writings of Paul

I cor. 11 is one of three passages that could be translated betrayed

the other two do deal not with Jesus but giving apostates over to Satans's jurisdiction where presumably they had been protected by God inspite of their apostacy hence it could be betrayal

but your greater point is not so clear-its not always delivered to death; by context of the greater passage surrounding it could in some instance be delivery to mankind of the eternal Christ into mortal flesh-although some of the passages explicitly meandelivered unto death-eventhat though could be within the context og the garden prayer where Jesus prays to have the cup taken from him

so your first point is grudgingly conceded ; but thats not the end of the story

because if you back and read the Judas story delivered fits there most of the time as well

delivered into the hands of enemies ect... so it could still be an oblique reference to an historical event especially since it references the Last Supper
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:27 am

Davelaw wrote:preliminary

just dealing with the writings of Paul

I cor. 11 is one of three passages that could be translated betrayed

the other two do deal not with Jesus but giving apostates over to Satans's jurisdiction where presumably they had been protected by God inspite of their apostacy hence it could be betrayal

Hm, a bit shaky that one ...

but your greater point is not so clear-its not always delivered to death; by context of the greater passage surrounding it could in some instance be delivery to mankind of the eternal Christ into mortal flesh-although some of the passages explicitly mean delivered unto death-eventhat though could be within the context og the garden prayer where Jesus prays to have the cup taken from him

so if God's plan included him delivering Jesus to Death then why would a betrayal be needed? the same would have been achieved with the Romans simply capturing Jesus?

but assuming Judas betrayed Jesus, wasn't he then simply fulfilling what God required?

so your first point is grudgingly conceded ; but thats not the end of the story

it's a start Wink

because if you back and read the Judas story delivered fits there most of the time as well

delivered into the hands of enemies ect... so it could still be an oblique reference to an historical event especially since it references the Last Supper

a lot of assumptions here. especially since Paul never refers to a betrayal of Jesus by some person.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:32 am

neither does tha passage say delivery by God which leads to another point of contention

the delivery by God passages are theological in nature where this is refering to an event that happened at night

concept vs. specific event
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:34 am

Davelaw wrote:neither does tha passage say delivery by God which leads to another point of contention

Agreed. But since he speaks of God delivering Jesus to Death in 15 other passages (and in none of Judas) it is reasonable to assume he means the same here.

the delivery by God passages are theological in nature where this is refering to an event that happened at night

concept vs. specific event

so what? Jesus' death had a theological meaning/nature/necessity, no?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:39 am

but no where else does Paul link to things that seem quasi-historical


when it happened that night; this is what Jesus said/ this what Jesus did


so taking the meaning passage and link it to the somewhat historical passage may be a leap even if the same or similiar language is used
especially in light of the laguage used in the Gospels-it is more likely that they somewhat coincide since they are describing the orgin of the same ceremony
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:37 am

Davelaw wrote:but no where else does Paul link to things that seem quasi-historical

when it happened that night; this is what Jesus said/ this what Jesus did

The Romans decided/succeeded to capture Jesus that night. Why the need for a betrayer?

And the capture was, according to Paul, part of God's plan. God delivered Jesus to the Romans to get him killed so that he could destroy Death.

so taking the meaning passage and link it to the somewhat historical passage may be a leap even if the same or similiar language is used

especially in light of the laguage used in the Gospels-it is more likely that they somewhat coincide since they are describing the orgin of the same ceremony

Are you still denying that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus to Death?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by TPaine on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:30 pm

This has been fun, but I have a question. Dave, you accuse Celsus of using Ehrman's arguments, but I just read Ehrman on this subject, and he said there was no reason for anyone to pay Judas to turn Jesus over to them. If they wanted to arrest him they simply could have followed him until they found him alone. Ehrman said the only thing that the Jewish authorities believed would be worth paying for would be something they believed that Jesus told the disciples that he didn't say publicly. For instance, that he was the Messiah or the future King of the Jews. In that event they would believe that Judas would have heard such such a claim, so they were actually paying for information that they could bring before Pilate as a treason charge.
Ehrman says there are a lot of "if's;" there, but if they fell into place as the authorities hoped they would, it's one theory that makes sense.
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:43 pm

thats a statement-what was teh question?
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:33 am

Davelaw wrote:thats a statement-what was teh question?
One of these days I'm going to learn not to try to post while trying to cook supper. The question was supposed to be, if we assume Ehrman's argument is true, doesnt it make sense to assume that Judas did betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver either because he was upset that Jesus didn't institute a revolt that Judas hoped for, or to try to put Jesus in a position in which he would have to indtitute such a revolt to save his life?
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:47 am

thats a reasonable assumption-at least one of Jesus' disciples was described as a Zealot

and we really don't know the meaning of Iscariot-was he from Kerioth was he a Sicari (sp) ? (we don't have evidence they existed yet) - we just don't know

was Judas really the treasurer? is that a later edition? (my default position is always to take scripture at face value-but i'm aware that other's mileage may vary)

another possibility for the payment is for Judas acting as the liason with the Roman authorities-who not necessarily be able to pick Jesus out from a crowd
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:11 am

Davelaw wrote:thats a statement-what was teh question?

Speaking of questions:

- The Romans decided/succeeded to capture Jesus that night. Why the need for a betrayer?

And the capture was, according to Paul, part of God's plan. God delivered Jesus to the Romans to get him killed so that he could destroy Death.

- Are you still denying that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus to Death?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:13 am

Davelaw wrote:another possibility for the payment is for Judas acting as the liason with the Roman authorities-who not necessarily be able to pick Jesus out from a crowd

Nonsense. If Jesus was such a trouble maker they knew who he was. They could also simply have followed him, he was walking around publicly and preaching and stuff, right?

And assuming his ride into the city, with all the people cheering him etc, actually happened, do you think that no Roman would have noticed this?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:13 pm

The only problem with the last few posts is that the Romans did not arrest Jesus, and most likely knew nothing about it at the time. He was arrested by Jewish authorities on the orders of the Sanhedrin possibly because his disruptive actions in the temple just prior to the passover feast angered many of the Sadducees, or they feared that his followers would follow his lead and possibly riot.
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:16 pm

the Jewish authorities had no arrest powers under Roman occupation
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:29 am

TPaine wrote:The only problem with the last few posts is that the Romans did not arrest Jesus, and most likely knew nothing about it at the time. He was arrested by Jewish authorities on the orders of the Sanhedrin possibly because his disruptive actions in the temple just prior to the passover feast angered many of the Sadducees, or they feared that his followers would follow his lead and possibly riot.

I'm ok with that too.

The point is that a 'betrayer' was not needed if people wanted to arrest Jesus. They just had to follow him.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:30 am

Davelaw wrote:the Jewish authorities had no arrest powers under Roman occupation

Then the Jewish authorities simply had to urge the Romans to silence the trouble maker.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

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