Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:24 am

Davelaw wrote:2) that was one focus not Paul's sole focus

Paul also emphasized the delivery of the divine being into the fleshly vessel

the concept of being delievered to death is not incompatible with being betrayed

But you agree that Paul was convinced that GOD delivered Jesus to Death? Yes or No?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:31 am

i'm still doing a textual comparison of all the passages- i only had one semester of Koine in high school give me some time
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:32 am

Davelaw wrote:i'm still doing a textual comparison of all the passages- i only had one semester of Koine in high school give me some time

Ok ...

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:33 am

Davelaw wrote:i'm still doing a textual comparison of all the passages- i only had one semester of Koine in high school give me some time

I'm not sure what you intend to find there too?

That GOD betrayed Jesus to Death??

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:42 am

well, He delivered the divine Godhood into a human vessel-we will see
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:45 am

Davelaw wrote:well, He delivered the divine Godhood into a human vessel-we will see

You're escaping the question.

Paul is clear on this: God (paradidomi) Jesus over to Death. Do we agree on this?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:49 am

you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:54 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

His ONLY source of knowledge are his alleged 'visions' by the 'resurrected Christ' ... Rolling Eyes

first I want you to back this one up: we know Paul had contact with Peter and James. Was partners with Barnabus one of the original 120 and was also linked to the purported author of Mark-yet all his knowledge came from his visions? or thats all he mentioned in his letters?

Paul claims, in his own letters, that his knowledge comes directly from the 'risen Christ' and that this qualifies him as an Apostle.

The contact with Peter and James, quite some time after Paul's own vision (at least 3 years), is complicated at best. Judging from Paul's letters. So what?

So:

1. What is your evidence that Paul is not a story teller but something like a reporter of historical events?
2. Do you deny that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus over to Death?


what Paul claimed is not exactly relevant-Paul was introduced to the church by one of the original disciples, worked with him and could have easily gained his knowledge there
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:00 am

Davelaw wrote:you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?

What's there to study?

He uses PARADIDOMI in ALL of these cases. So the only thing you could study was how he meant PARADIDOMI there. But if it wasn't meant as DELIVERED then it has to be BETRAYED. And I'm assuming you don't think that your God has betrayed Jesus?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:01 am

Davelaw wrote:what Paul claimed is not exactly relevant-Paul was introduced to the church by one of the original disciples, worked with him and could have easily gained his knowledge there

What? Shocked

So you're accusing Paul of being a liar when he claims to not have received his knowledge by men but by the 'risen Christ' himself?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:03 am

the authority of his knowledge comes form Christ himself-he never claims that was his sole source
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:18 am

Davelaw wrote:the authority of his knowledge comes form Christ himself-he never claims that was his sole source

Where does he say that he had other sources?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:18 am

Davelaw wrote:you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?

What's there to study?

He uses PARADIDOMI in ALL of these cases. So the only thing you could study was how he meant PARADIDOMI there. But if it wasn't meant as DELIVERED then it has to be BETRAYED. And I'm assuming you don't think that your God has betrayed Jesus?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:47 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the authority of his knowledge comes form Christ himself-he never claims that was his sole source

Where does he say that he had other sources?

he doesn't; the fact remains he had access to other sources
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:50 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?

What's there to study?

He uses PARADIDOMI in ALL of these cases. So the only thing you could study was how he meant PARADIDOMI there. But if it wasn't meant as DELIVERED then it has to be BETRAYED. And I'm assuming you don't think that your God has betrayed Jesus?

there are more than two meanings to PARADIDOMI; i'm looking as surety on a bond as a possible meanings as well
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:50 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the authority of his knowledge comes form Christ himself-he never claims that was his sole source

Where does he say that he had other sources?

he doesn't; the fact remains he had access to other sources

Fact? According to whom?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:51 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?

What's there to study?

He uses PARADIDOMI in ALL of these cases. So the only thing you could study was how he meant PARADIDOMI there. But if it wasn't meant as DELIVERED then it has to be BETRAYED. And I'm assuming you don't think that your God has betrayed Jesus?

there are more than two meanings to PARADIDOMI; i'm looking as surety on a bond as a possible meanings as well

could you please rephrase that last sentence? I'm not sure what you mean.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:54 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?

What's there to study?

He uses PARADIDOMI in ALL of these cases. So the only thing you could study was how he meant PARADIDOMI there. But if it wasn't meant as DELIVERED then it has to be BETRAYED. And I'm assuming you don't think that your God has betrayed Jesus?

there are more than two meanings to PARADIDOMI; i'm looking as surety on a bond as a possible meanings as well

could you please rephrase that last sentence? I'm not sure what you mean.

possible meanings include: surrender, i.e yield up, intrust, transmit:--betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up), give (over, up), hazard, put in prison, recommend.

intrust-a pledge for security
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:55 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:you just said you give would me time to study your contention in the original Greek-now you are taking that time back-are you a liar?

What's there to study?

He uses PARADIDOMI in ALL of these cases. So the only thing you could study was how he meant PARADIDOMI there. But if it wasn't meant as DELIVERED then it has to be BETRAYED. And I'm assuming you don't think that your God has betrayed Jesus?

there are more than two meanings to PARADIDOMI; i'm looking as surety on a bond as a possible meanings as well

could you please rephrase that last sentence? I'm not sure what you mean.

possible meanings include: surrender, i.e yield up, intrust, transmit:--betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up), give (over, up), hazard, put in prison, recommend.

intrust-a pledge for security

I'm still not sure how you can think that any of those alternative meanings can help your case ... ?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:58 am

i'm still looking; i'll make the conclusion after-it may take me several days of considered thought
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:00 am

Davelaw wrote:i'm still looking; i'll make the conclusion after-it may take me several days of considered thought

OK. Looking forward to your answer then.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:01 am

mainly because my Greek is so excreable
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:04 am

Davelaw wrote:mainly because my Greek is so excreable

Fair enough. So why not look up if some other Christian has already found a better answer to it? Wink

And the word 'paradidomi' can only have a limited number of meanings, especially in the setting where Paul uses it. So it can't be that difficult to list the different possible options.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:05 am

because I want to know for myself
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:07 am

Davelaw wrote:because I want to know for myself

fair enough. but isn't that a bit difficult if you're not that versed in Greek? how can you be sure your conclusion will be correct?

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