Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Page 2 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:06 pm

Dave?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:07 pm

the evidence is the passage you discount

and it does not aid your cause to go personal
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:09 pm

Davelaw wrote:the evidence is the passage you discount

and it does not aid youe cause to go personal

and the evidence that Paul's version of 'this passage' was the same that the Gospel writers had is ... ?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:14 pm

at night, with the twelve, same ceremony, same words

but i 've heard all these arguments before

the twelve can't be the disciples; because Judas is dead by now

James the Lord's brother is just an affectation-its not refering to an actual James who claimed to be the actual brother of Jesus

and so it goes
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:18 pm

Davelaw wrote:at night, with the twelve, same ceremony, same words

but i 've heard all these arguments before

the twelve can't be the disciples; because Judas is dead by now

James the Lord's brother is just an affectation-its not refering to an actual James who claimed to be the actual brother of Jesus

and so it goes

tell me this then:

did Paul, explicitly, say that there was a betrayal by Judas?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:23 pm

Davelaw wrote:at night, with the twelve, same ceremony, same words

but i 've heard all these arguments before

the twelve can't be the disciples; because Judas is dead by now

James the Lord's brother is just an affectation-its not refering to an actual James who claimed to be the actual brother of Jesus

and so it goes

by the way: Paul claims to have gotten these accounts DIRECTLY from the Lord, not from some other tradition, oral or written.

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you

And the ones he was writing this letter obviously didn't know of this story, so what's the evidence that there was a tradition circulating at that time already which contained the 'betrayal by Judas'?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:39 pm

because Paul spent three years with the ressurrected Lord learning everything they learned in the Arabian desert
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:42 pm

Davelaw wrote:because Paul spent three years with the ressurrected Lord learning everything they learned in the Arabian desert

1. You're avoiding the question again: Did Paul, explicitly, say that there was a betrayal by Judas?
2. Where does Paul say that he was in the desert with the resurrected Christ for three years? For all we know he could have tried to convert the people in those regions but failed and decided to come back to Judea.


Last edited by Celsus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:42 pm

...

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:44 pm

Davelaw wrote:because Paul spent three years with the ressurrected Lord learning everything they learned in the Arabian desert

you also ignored this part: And the ones he was writing this letter obviously didn't know of this story, so what's the evidence that there was a tradition circulating at that time already which contained the 'betrayal by Judas'?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:46 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:because Paul spent three years with the ressurrected Lord learning everything they learned in the Arabian desert

1. You're avoiding the question again: Did Paul, explicitly, say that there was a betrayal by Judas?
2. Where does Paul say that he was in the desert with the resurrected Christ for three years? For all we know he could have tried to convert the people in those regions but failed and decided to come back to Judea.

1) no he never names Judas specifically; but his publicist Luke does

2) its not said explicitly Paul says he was in Arabia for three years and claims to be an Apostle equal to the other Apostles (who studied with Jesus for three years)
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:47 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:because Paul spent three years with the ressurrected Lord learning everything they learned in the Arabian desert

you also ignored this part: And the ones he was writing this letter obviously didn't know of this story, so what's the evidence that there was a tradition circulating at that time already which contained the 'betrayal by Judas'?

you mean Gentiles didn't know a Jewish tradition? I'm shocked
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:because Paul spent three years with the ressurrected Lord learning everything they learned in the Arabian desert

1. You're avoiding the question again: Did Paul, explicitly, say that there was a betrayal by Judas?
2. Where does Paul say that he was in the desert with the resurrected Christ for three years? For all we know he could have tried to convert the people in those regions but failed and decided to come back to Judea.

1) no he never names Judas specifically;

Good. I'm glad you can at least admit this.

but his publicist Luke does

What's the evidence that 'Luke' was Paul's publicist?

2) its not said explicitly Paul says he was in Arabia for three years and claims to be an Apostle equal to the other Apostles (who studied with Jesus for three years)

So you're simply assuming things ...

Also the Synoptics and John don't agree on how long the disciples were with Jesus, one or three years.

And what did they 'study' with Jesus, lol??? They didn't really seem brilliant after all those time did they? Either they were dumb or Jesus was a bad teacher. But we're getting off-topic now.

So we've now agreed that Paul did not mention Judas as the betrayer of Jesus. Good. It wasn't that hard, was it?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:57 pm

that wasn't really your point-you are trying to make the point there is no way Paul could mean betrayed - that it has to mean delivered by God to death

Paul's not a story teller
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:13 pm

Davelaw wrote:that wasn't really your point-you are trying to make the point there is no way Paul could mean betrayed - that it has to mean delivered by God to death

And I still stand by that claim. It's based on his own letters. Paul was convinced that GOD delivered Jesus to Death. Or are you denying this? He said it 15 times ...

Paul's not a story teller

And the evidence for this ... ?

His ONLY source of knowledge are his alleged 'visions' by the 'resurrected Christ' ... Rolling Eyes

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:05 am

Don't forget this one, Dave Wink

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:05 am

I actually was expecting to you to make the more clever textual argument that Pauls says he delivered the Lord's Supper tradition to the church at Corinth ( paradidomi) in the same sentence where i want to use the word as betrayed.
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:07 am

Davelaw wrote:I actually was expecting to you to make the more clever textual argument that Pauls says he delivered the Lord's Supper tradition to the church at Corinth ( paradidomi) in the same sentence where i want to use the word as betrayed.

Ok, that's noted. It doesn't help your case though.

And I'd still like to read your answers on my previous two questions.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:08 am

Celsus wrote:

His ONLY source of knowledge are his alleged 'visions' by the 'resurrected Christ' ... Rolling Eyes

first I want you to back this one up: we know Paul had contact with Peter and James. Was partners with Barnabus one of the original 120 and was also linked to the purported author of Mark-yet all his knowledge came from his visions? or thats all he mentioned in his letters?
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:10 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I actually was expecting to you to make the more clever textual argument that Pauls says he delivered the Lord's Supper tradition to the church at Corinth ( paradidomi) in the same sentence where i want to use the word as betrayed.

Ok, that's noted. It doesn't help your case though.

And I'd still like to read your answers on my previous two questions.

my case doesn't need help-eternity justifies itself-i'm only talking for my own personal amusement- I'm not an apologist at least not in the traditional sense
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:12 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

His ONLY source of knowledge are his alleged 'visions' by the 'resurrected Christ' ... Rolling Eyes

first I want you to back this one up: we know Paul had contact with Peter and James. Was partners with Barnabus one of the original 120 and was also linked to the purported author of Mark-yet all his knowledge came from his visions? or thats all he mentioned in his letters?

Paul claims, in his own letters, that his knowledge comes directly from the 'risen Christ' and that this qualifies him as an Apostle.

The contact with Peter and James, quite some time after Paul's own vision (at least 3 years), is complicated at best. Judging from Paul's letters. So what?

So:

1. What is your evidence that Paul is not a story teller but something like a reporter of historical events?
2. Do you deny that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus over to Death?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:13 am

Davelaw wrote:my case doesn't need help-eternity justifies itself-i'm only talking for my own personal amusement- I'm not an apologist at least not in the traditional sense

A lot of Christians will be in for a surprise when they die, wanna bet? Wink But it's not such a bad surprise because there will be no punishment for the belief they held.

You may be here for your amusement, just as I am, but I'm sure you like to argue rationally and logically?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:20 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

His ONLY source of knowledge are his alleged 'visions' by the 'resurrected Christ' ... Rolling Eyes

first I want you to back this one up: we know Paul had contact with Peter and James. Was partners with Barnabus one of the original 120 and was also linked to the purported author of Mark-yet all his knowledge came from his visions? or thats all he mentioned in his letters?

Paul claims, in his own letters, that his knowledge comes directly from the 'risen Christ' and that this qualifies him as an Apostle.

The contact with Peter and James, quite some time after Paul's own vision (at least 3 years), is complicated at best. Judging from Paul's letters. So what?

So:

1. What is your evidence that Paul is not a story teller but something like a reporter of historical events?
2. Do you deny that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus over to Death?

1) you always add shit- not a story teller but a giver of doctrine-i never said reporter-a reporter is a story teller-a historicsl event is still a story-Paul does not give those
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:21 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

His ONLY source of knowledge are his alleged 'visions' by the 'resurrected Christ' ... Rolling Eyes

first I want you to back this one up: we know Paul had contact with Peter and James. Was partners with Barnabus one of the original 120 and was also linked to the purported author of Mark-yet all his knowledge came from his visions? or thats all he mentioned in his letters?

Paul claims, in his own letters, that his knowledge comes directly from the 'risen Christ' and that this qualifies him as an Apostle.

The contact with Peter and James, quite some time after Paul's own vision (at least 3 years), is complicated at best. Judging from Paul's letters. So what?

So:

1. What is your evidence that Paul is not a story teller but something like a reporter of historical events?
2. Do you deny that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus over to Death?

1) you always add shit- not a story teller but a giver of doctrine-i never said reporter-a reporter is a story teller-a historicsl event is still a story-Paul does not give those

Hm, I thought the opposite of a story teller was a (honest) reporter of historical events?

So what is the evidence that the doctrines he gave were based on some actual truth?

And please answer this one:

Do you deny that Paul was convinced that God delivered Jesus over to Death?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:22 am

2) that was one focus not Paul's sole focus

Paul also emphasized the delivery of the divine being into the fleshly vessel

the concept of being delievered to death is not incompatible with being betrayed
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum