Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

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Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:28 am

Judas is one of the most interesting characters in that whole story. Yet I'm sure he didn't exist like he's described in the Gospels.

How comes, for example, that Paul, the earliest Christian author, does never refer to Judas nor the alleged betrayal by him? See 1 Cor 11:23.

And no, he didn't say: 'on the night that Jesus was betrayed' but 'on the night that Jesus was handed over'. The Greek word 'paradidomi' means 'to give or to hand someone over to somebody else' and Paul uses this word another 15 times while referring to Jesus and in ALL of these instances it refers to GOD handing Jesus over to Death.

Like in Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered (paradidomi) Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by TPaine on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:23 pm

Celsus, the Bible can't get the story of the death of Judas straight, and you're asking what myths existed about him among the various Christians sects before Paul wrote his first letter in 59 CE? Just to explain what I mean here for those who may not know, Mathew 27:1 - 10 states:
Matthew 27 (New International Version)
Judas Hangs Himself
1Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people came to the decision to put Jesus to death.
2They bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate, the governor.
3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
4"I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood."
"What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."
5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money."
7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
8That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."[a]

Footnote
a Matthew 27:10 See Zech. 11:12,13; Jer. 19:1-13; 32:6-9.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027%20;&version=31;

Yet the author of Luke who also wrote Acts saw things differently.
Acts 1:18 (New International Version)
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:18;&version=31;

Obviously, such myths had to exist because since Paul (as Saul of Tarsus) persecuted the new Christian sects until his alleged "conversion" on the Damascus Road, the only knowlege he could have had of Christian belief would have had to have come either from oral legend or from documents that no longer exist.
Thomas Paine explained the Paul's "conversion" well in Part II of his Age of Reason
The story of his being struck to the ground as he was journeying to Damascus, has nothing in it miraculous or extraordinary; he escaped with life, and that is more than many others have done, who have been struck with lightning; and that he should lose his sight for three days, and be unable to eat or drink during that time, is nothing more than is common in such conditions. His companions that were with him appear not to have suffered in the same manner, for they were well enough to lead him the remainder of the journey; neither did they pretend to have seen any vision.
The character of the person called Paul, according to the accounts given of him, has in it a great deal of violence and fanaticism; he had persecuted with as much heat as he preached afterwards; the stroke he had received had changed his thinking, without altering his constitution; and either as a Jew or a Christian he was the same zealot. Such men are never good moral evidences of any doctrine they preach. They are always in extremes, as well of action as of belief.
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:46 pm

Celsus wrote:Judas is one of the most interesting characters in that whole story. Yet I'm sure he didn't exist like he's described in the Gospels.

How comes, for example, that Paul, the earliest Christian author, does never refer to Judas nor the alleged betrayal by him? See 1 Cor 11:23.

And no, he didn't say: 'on the night that Jesus was betrayed' but 'on the night that Jesus was handed over'. The Greek word 'paradidomi' means 'to give or to hand someone over to somebody else' and Paul uses this word another 15 times while referring to Jesus and in ALL of these instances it refers to GOD handing Jesus over to Death.

Like in Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered (paradidomi) Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3860&version=nas

shows the use of the word translated betrayed as well as the use of delivered -they are both appropriate uses of the word
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:59 pm

For example

Mt 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

paradidomi
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:48 am

Now, if you were to limit your argument and say that although paradidomai can mean betrayed in both koine in classical Greek but it didn't in Paul's writing you would have a stronger argument-one that still falls short because Paul is quoting from Q in th epassage or from a similiar oral tradition and we have from Matthew which directly borrowed from Q paradidomai used as betrayal.
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:10 am

Davelaw wrote:For example

Mt 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

paradidomi

Uh ... so? That's not PAUL writing. I showed how Paul used 'paradidomi', especially in the relationship between Jesus and God.

You're free to ignore that of course.

The author of 'Matthew' obviously misunderstood Paul and thought he was referring to a betrayal of Jesus by Judas, the evil Jew ... (or 'Matthew' made that up on purpose to vilify the alleged enemies of the new faith).

But even in that Matthew quote it could mean: 'one of you shall hand me over'. Which makes sense too since Jesus' mission was to be delivered unto Death to conquer and shatter it, right? And I assume he couldn't do that just by jumping from a cliff and thus killing himself?


Last edited by Celsus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:12 am

Davelaw wrote:Now, if you were to limit your argument and say that although paradidomai can mean betrayed in both koine in classical Greek but it didn't in Paul's writing you would have a stronger argument-one that still falls short because Paul is quoting from Q in th epassage or from a similiar oral tradition and we have from Matthew which directly borrowed from Q paradidomai used as betrayal.

Paul uses 'paradidomi' another 15 times while referring to Jesus and in ALL of these instances it refers to GOD handing Jesus over to Death.

Look it up and tell me where this claim is erroneous.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:14 am

the evil Jew? even though other disciples were named Judas as well after the national hero Judas the Hammer?
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:15 am

Davelaw wrote:the evil Jew? even though other disciples were named Judas as well after the national hero Judas the Hammer?

Don't try to deflect now. Focus on my argument.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:22 am

I'm not reflecting on any thing but bed-I reflect on your rehashed and debunked reclcling of Ehrman's argument tomorrow

but If you don't think the mere fact that Judas was a common name among the disiples debunks your theory that name Judas was used to make Jews look evil

well?


Last edited by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:24 am

Davelaw wrote:the evil Jew? even though other disciples were named Judas as well after the national hero Judas the Hammer?

Forget the 'evil Jew' part. I used 'the alleged enemies of the new faith' to clarify what I meant.

And can you now try to address the actual question:

Paul uses 'paradidomi' another 15 times while referring to Jesus and in ALL of these instances it refers to GOD handing Jesus over to Death.

Look it up and tell me where this claim is erroneous.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:30 am

He also uses paradidomai to refer to apostacy and former Christians betraying themsselves to lust and vice and greed.

paradidomai has wide range of uses including pledging your self for a contract and other things-you can ignore the context that Paul uses the exact formula of the Lord's Supper to demonstrate how it should be used in this passage.

Good Nite its 1:30 am here-I have court in the morning


and i won't ever forget your use of "evil Jew"
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:54 am

Davelaw wrote:He also uses paradidomai to refer to apostacy and former Christians betraying themsselves to lust and vice and greed.

paradidomai has wide range of uses including pledging your self for a contract and other things-you can ignore the context that Paul uses the exact formula of the Lord's Supper to demonstrate how it should be used in this passage.

The point is that Paul makes NO reference to a BETRAYAL BY JUDAS. That's simply a FACT.

On the other hand he speaks ALL THE TIME (15 times!) of God delivering Jesus over to Death to destroy it.

So what is your EVIDENCE, from Paul's letters, that he knew of an alleged betrayal by Judas?

and i won't ever forget your use of "evil Jew"

Uh ... ok. But so what?

I didn't declare Jews to be evil, not at that time and not now. I explained how I meant it, and I spoke from the perspective of 1st century Christians. Are you trying to label me as an anti-Semite? Laughing

Wow, that's a desperate move then.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:34 am

nope, that just noting that you will ignore all evidence that does not agree with your position including cultural practices that indicate Judas was a common name
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:36 am

Davelaw wrote:nope, that just noting that you will ignore all evidence that does not agree with your position including cultural practices that indicate Judas was a common name

In Christian, post-Jewish circles? When?

And you're still ignoring my evidence regarding PAUL's use of 'paradidomi' ... Rolling Eyes

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:39 am

not really; you are just being too rigid just because he used it the way your suggesting dis not limit its use-because he also used it in others ways not in the context you are suggesting
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:43 am

Davelaw wrote:not really; you are just being too rigid just because he used it the way your suggesting dis not limit its use-because he also used it in others ways not in the context you are suggesting

The point is that Paul makes NO reference to a BETRAYAL BY JUDAS. That's simply a FACT. Or are you denying this?

On the other hand he speaks ALL THE TIME (15 times!) of God delivering Jesus over to Death to destroy it.

So what is your EVIDENCE, from Paul's letters, that he knew of an alleged betrayal by Judas?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:46 am

yes I'm denying that-he makes reference to it in his one use of the word in the same context as the Lord's Supper formula

and in his 15 times use in another way its never in the context of the Lord's Supper
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:49 am

Davelaw wrote:yes I'm denying that-he makes reference to it in his one use of the word in the same context as the Lord's Supper formula

and in his 15 times use in another way its never in the context of the Lord's Supper

So what?

What is the EVIDENCE that in this case, unlike in those FIFTEEN other cases, Paul is not referring to God delivering Jesus but instead to a 'betrayal by Judas'?

Except the Gospels making this claim.

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:51 am

the evidence is the linking to the Lord's Supper
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:55 am

Davelaw wrote:the evidence is the linking to the Lord's Supper

Dave, you're a lawyer, right? You ought to do better than this.

Why is the linking to the Lord's Supper evidence that Paul implied a betrayal by Judas?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:14 am

because its not original with Paul; he is referencing Q or an oral tradition like it

he also in different places references the sermon on the mount or gives Midrash derived from it

and if you believe the pastorals are Pauls like scholars like Luke Timothy Johnson do-Paul also references Pilate

as well giving immersion as a picture of a physical death, step down into death-burial, and a resurrection


also when Pauls mentions the word in the context of betrayal-it references that it happened at night-which places the event in a real physical context, that Jesus gave a teaching to the 12 using real bread and real wine-all which link it to Q or a similiar oral tradition
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:34 am

Davelaw wrote:because its not original with Paul; he is referencing Q or an oral tradition like it

and the evidence that this tradition contained a betrayal by Judas is ... ?

he also in different places references the sermon on the mount or gives Midrash derived from it
and if you believe the pastorals are Pauls like scholars like Luke Timothy Johnson do-Paul also references Pilate
as well giving immersion as a picture of a physical death, step down into death-burial, and a resurrection

and the evidence that the Pastorals are actually from Paul is ... ? there's much more evidence to the contrary actually.

also mentioning Pilate does not imply, let alone confirm, a betrayal by Judas

also when Pauls mentions the word in the context of betrayal-it references that it happened at night-which places the event in a real physical context, that Jesus gave a teaching to the 12 using real bread and real wine-all which link it to Q or a similiar oral tradition

Quotes, please? I'm not sure what part of Paul's letters you are talking of?

But the point remains that Paul makes NO reference to a BETRAYAL BY JUDAS. That's simply a FACT.

On the other hand he speaks ALL THE TIME (15 times!) of God delivering Jesus over to Death to destroy it.

So what is your EVIDENCE, from Paul's letters, that he knew of an alleged betrayal by Judas?

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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Davelaw on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:42 am

its only a fact if one assumes that the reference itself is not to the act dome by Judas and thats is the one and only mention

I'm off to court-to be continued unless you want to agree to disagree

we conservative literalists know we are the minority opinion
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Re: Did the Judas myth already exist at Paul's time?

Post by Daldianus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:01 am

Davelaw wrote:its only a fact if one assumes that the reference itself is not to the act dome by Judas and thats is the one and only mention

I'm off to court-to be continued unless you want to agree to disagree

we conservative literalists know we are the minority opinion

Come on, you're a lawyer, you know how these games go and you know that you're on very shaky grounds, such an argumentation would NEVER hold up in court ... Therefore please answer this question directly:

So what is your EVIDENCE, from Paul's letters, that he knew of an alleged betrayal by Judas?

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