Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:34 pm

Davelaw wrote:but they do

who does what?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:36 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:but they do

who does what?

claim to be the Truth and impose themselves on others
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:38 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:but they do

who does what?

claim to be the Truth and impose themselves on others

I know that, for example, the Christians do that. so?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:41 pm

yes said superstition don't bother unless they claim to be the ultimate truth-they all claim to be the ultimate truth even your hyper-postivistisn claims to be the ultimate truth-i.e. its not real unless it can be observed and explained rationally
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:54 pm

Davelaw wrote:yes said superstition don't bother unless they claim to be the ultimate truth-they all claim to be the ultimate truth even your hyper-postivistisn claims to be the ultimate truth-i.e. its not real unless it can be observed and explained rationally

I don't claim to know what The Truth is. I'm just applying logic and rationality to the claims of those who pretend to know The Truth.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:57 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:yes said superstition don't bother unless they claim to be the ultimate truth-they all claim to be the ultimate truth even your hyper-postivistisn claims to be the ultimate truth-i.e. its not real unless it can be observed and explained rationally

I don't claim to know what The Truth is. I'm just applying logic and rationality to the claims of those who pretend to know The Truth.

but you believe that logic and rationality are the standard by which every thing should be measured

so, yes you do claim to know the truth
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:00 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:yes said superstition don't bother unless they claim to be the ultimate truth-they all claim to be the ultimate truth even your hyper-postivistisn claims to be the ultimate truth-i.e. its not real unless it can be observed and explained rationally

I don't claim to know what The Truth is. I'm just applying logic and rationality to the claims of those who pretend to know The Truth.

but you believe that logic and rationality are the standard by which every thing should be measured

so, yes you do claim to know the truth

No, I don't claim to know The Truth (meaning why we exist, what happens after death, etc).

I'm just saying that it makes more sense, and is more efficient, to use rationality and logic to figure things out instead of relying on wishful thinking and folklore.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:04 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:yes said superstition don't bother unless they claim to be the ultimate truth-they all claim to be the ultimate truth even your hyper-postivistisn claims to be the ultimate truth-i.e. its not real unless it can be observed and explained rationally

I don't claim to know what The Truth is. I'm just applying logic and rationality to the claims of those who pretend to know The Truth.

but you believe that logic and rationality are the standard by which every thing should be measured

so, yes you do claim to know the truth

No, I don't claim to know The Truth (meaning why we exist, what happens after death, etc).

I'm just saying that it makes more sense, and is more efficient, to use rationality and logic to figure things out instead of relying on wishful thinking and folklore.

but its not... rationality and logic does NOT address Divine Revelation at all
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:07 pm

Davelaw wrote:but its not... rationality and logic does NOT address Divine Revelation at all

says who? and what is the evidence for this?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Ken on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:11 pm


rationality and logic does NOT address Divine Revelation at all

Unless you're saying that Divine Revelation is a work of art to which the only correct response is aesthetic, I think they'd better.
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TPaine on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:45 pm

Just to add some history to the discussion (or pour gasoline on the fire), back in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE there were Christian groups who were not trinitarian and did not believe in the divinity of the man Jesus. Some of those groups were the Ebionites, Marcionites, and some Gnostics. Later, Catharism which was also non-trinitarian existed in Western Europe in the 11th - 13th centuries CE, but the Cathars were almost wiped out in the Albigensian Crusade of 1209 - 1229 CE ordered by Pope Innocent III. Many consider this crusade to be one of the start of the Inquisition. The verses in the New Testament that most directly speak to the concept of the Trinity are found in I John 5:7-8 which says:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
This is from the KJV, however, the NIV translates the passage differently:
1 John 5:7-8 (New International Version)7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
That passage has a footnote in the NIV which states:
1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
According to Dr. Bart D. Erhman, Head of the Religious Studies Department at the University of North Carolina, when Erasmus published his first edition of the Greek New Testament in 1516 CE, he did not include that passage from I John. When questioned by church fathers as to why he had left out the reference to the Holy Trinity, Erasmus replied, correctly, that the verses existed only in the Latin Vulgate, and not in any known Greek version. Evidently, one of these church fathers added these verses to a copy of a Greek manuscript, and Erasmus (possibly remembering the fate of the Cathars) agreed to use it in his second edition. That was the edition used as the Greek "source" in creating the KJV.
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:24 pm

Well, if you look at the Codex Sinaiticus, it sure isn't in there.

Sorry, I gate the wrong link. Here is the right one.

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=55&chapter=5&lid=en&side=r&verse=7&zoomSlider=0

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:15 am

Dave? Still there?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:19 am

TPaine wrote:Just to add some history to the discussion (or pour gasoline on the fire), back in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE there were Christian groups who were not trinitarian and did not believe in the divinity of the man Jesus. Some of those groups were the Ebionites, Marcionites, and some Gnostics. Later, Catharism which was also non-trinitarian existed in Western Europe in the 11th - 13th centuries CE, but the Cathars were almost wiped out in the Albigensian Crusade of 1209 - 1229 CE ordered by Pope Innocent III. Many consider this crusade to be one of the start of the Inquisition. The verses in the New Testament that most directly speak to the concept of the Trinity are found in I John 5:7-8 which says:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
This is from the KJV, however, the NIV translates the passage differently:
1 John 5:7-8 (New International Version)7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
That passage has a footnote in the NIV which states:
1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
According to Dr. Bart D. Erhman, Head of the Religious Studies Department at the University of North Carolina, when Erasmus published his first edition of the Greek New Testament in 1516 CE, he did not include that passage from I John. When questioned by church fathers as to why he had left out the reference to the Holy Trinity, Erasmus replied, correctly, that the verses existed only in the Latin Vulgate, and not in any known Greek version. Evidently, one of these church fathers added these verses to a copy of a Greek manuscript, and Erasmus (possibly remembering the fate of the Cathars) agreed to use it in his second edition. That was the edition used as the Greek "source" in creating the KJV.

Good post!

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:28 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:three by definition

The Godhead is composed of three parts/entities?

you do speak English? Trinity means three in one

Well, it kinda sort of means that, but not quite. It actually means "group of three". A more religious definition, of it would be a three fold personality of a god head. This does not mean that it's like a three in one package, but three separate personalities of the one. That being the case, Jesus, rather than being a god himself would only possess the personality of a god, (in this case the bible god.)

Now Dave, before you go to poo pooin this notion, consider the admonition to become more Christ-like. This would be the same manifestation, except being more god-like. It still renders Celsus' question moot however.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:25 am

Why moot?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:52 am

Celsus wrote:Why moot?

Because we're talking about persnalities.... not people. I had an epiphany when I wrote this earlier.... When Christians use the father, husband child explanation, they are in a way correct. As a child, I related to my parents differently than I do as a husband or father to my own kids. There was a different level of communication.... I went to them for advice when my kids were small, I went to my dad not as an equal, but as his son. As a husband, I negotiate family matters with my wife. It's a whole different personality involved. The same applies as a father. Sometimes I had to make unpopular decisions, and then back them up. I'm still John, but there's a difference. This isn't the same as Jesus being god, son and spirit all wrapped into one. So the spirit could not have died on the cross, neither could their god. It was a person, with a personality attuned to their god (desiring to be more god-like) who died. Your question is therefore moot.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:10 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Celsus wrote:Why moot?

Because we're talking about persnalities.... not people. I had an epiphany when I wrote this earlier.... When Christians use the father, husband child explanation, they are in a way correct. As a child, I related to my parents differently than I do as a husband or father to my own kids. There was a different level of communication.... I went to them for advice when my kids were small, I went to my dad not as an equal, but as his son. As a husband, I negotiate family matters with my wife. It's a whole different personality involved. The same applies as a father. Sometimes I had to make unpopular decisions, and then back them up. I'm still John, but there's a difference. This isn't the same as Jesus being god, son and spirit all wrapped into one. So the spirit could not have died on the cross, neither could their god. It was a person, with a personality attuned to their god (desiring to be more god-like) who died. Your question is therefore moot.

But, according to the NT, the different entities of the Trinity are interacting with each other and in relationship to each other.

That's impossible if there is only one being. Except for schizos of course Wink

As for your example with the family: Jesus is supposed to be the Son of the Father. What would equal that in your example? Are you your own Son and Father too?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:54 am

TPaine wrote:Just to add some history to the discussion (or pour gasoline on the fire), back in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE there were Christian groups who were not trinitarian and did not believe in the divinity of the man Jesus. Some of those groups were the Ebionites, Marcionites, and some Gnostics. Later, Catharism which was also non-trinitarian existed in Western Europe in the 11th - 13th centuries CE, but the Cathars were almost wiped out in the Albigensian Crusade of 1209 - 1229 CE ordered by Pope Innocent III. Many consider this crusade to be one of the start of the Inquisition.

We only have the word of the Church (and its forged documents) that Cathars were anything like they were claimed. We do know they traced their roots to the Bogamils who traced their roots to the Paulicians and that the paulicians were never the Gnostic sect that was claimed by either Constaninople or Rome. In fact, we have the Key of Truth which pretty well makes the Paulicians proto-anabaptists except for their adoptionist stance which is supposed to be heresy but doesn't seem that far off to me and that is that Jesus only fully became the Son of God at His baptism.
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:02 am

Davelaw wrote:but its not... rationality and logic does NOT address Divine Revelation at all

says who? and what is the evidence for this?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:14 am

that you can't hear a voice in someone mind; does not make the voice less real

supose an intelligence that is based on logic different than ours-that somehow could yet communicate in our world-our logic and our science would not necessarily be able to make sense of this alien logic
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:16 am

Davelaw wrote:that you can't hear a voice in someone mind; does not make the voice less real

true. but that doesn't make the voice the voice of God ...

are you hearing voices in your mind, Dave?

supose an intelligence that is based on logic different than ours-that somehow could yet communicate in our world-our logic and our science would not necessarily be able to make sense of this alien logic

logic is absolute. logic is not dependent on who's using it. your example makes no sense.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:17 am

And if your last, desperate attempt to avoid admitting that your religious belief concepts are illogical and irrational is to redefine logic and rationality then, well, everything has been said indeed ...

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:25 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:that you can't hear a voice in someone mind; does not make the voice less real

true. but that doesn't make the voice the voice of God ...

are you hearing voices in your mind, Dave?

supose an intelligence that is based on logic different than ours-that somehow could yet communicate in our world-our logic and our science would not necessarily be able to make sense of this alien logic

logic is absolute. logic is not dependent on who's using it. your example makes no sense.

logic is not absolute

you really need some theoretical physics under your belt
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:27 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:that you can't hear a voice in someone mind; does not make the voice less real

true. but that doesn't make the voice the voice of God ...

are you hearing voices in your mind, Dave?

I have heard the voice of God before; but more often from reading scripture
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