Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Page 7 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:24 am

gillyflower wrote:You start with 2 units and you end up with 8 units. There is no denying that. Also no one said in the rules that the end product had to resemble the beginning product, right? It is not false. It is simply something that you don't wish to accept as proof that 1 + 1 = 8. You can make new rules if you like to exclude reproduction in your supposition.

If I look at two objects (a male and female dog) in the backyard and then there are 8 objects (dogs) in the backyard I am not delusional or lying. Sometimes, you know, people will not come up with the same answer that you do, and they will not be lying nor will they be delusional. They will have had different experiences than you do and they will view your question from a different perspective than you do and therefore come to a different conclusion than you do.

But 1+1 is not 8.

1+1+6 is though.

You cannot look at two objects and claim there are eight objects AND be telling the truth.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:28 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:I come from the school of thought that says nothing is impossible. If it weren't for possibilities, and imagination, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Which doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is possible.

We wouldn't even know that each other even existed. It was someone's brain child; their imagination that created the computer, and even more imagination and refining that got us to the point that we can send mail to someone, have them read it in an instant and reply to it. Think of cell phones! For goodness sake, people don't even talk on them any more, they text message. And then there's Twitter! That all began as someone's idea. A product of someone's over active imagination suggesting that 2+2 by god can actually equal 5. Twenty years ago, if someone would have suggested to Daldi that we'd be able to communicate in the manner we do today, he would have gone through the same convulsions he's done with this prospect Dave offered, ( which BTW TED and I seem to be in agreement with.) It's only an idea, folks. Dave just sorta tossed it out there, and I'm guessing it got the desired results.... Daldi blew a gasket. Clap No need to rearrange your life style over it at this moment. Close your eyes and let the possibilities soar! Wink

I'm sorry but this analogy is inadequate. I'm referring to abstract and formal logic. Not to what human mind's can or cannot invent.

Logic is independent from people's behavior.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:53 am

Celsus wrote:
I'm sorry but this analogy is inadequate. I'm referring to abstract and formal logic. Not to what human mind's can or cannot invent.

Logic is independent from people's behavior.

that may be ypur religion; I'm agnostic toward the primacy of logic
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:07 am

Celsus wrote:
gillyflower wrote:You start with 2 units and you end up with 8 units. There is no denying that. Also no one said in the rules that the end product had to resemble the beginning product, right? It is not false. It is simply something that you don't wish to accept as proof that 1 + 1 = 8. You can make new rules if you like to exclude reproduction in your supposition.

If I look at two objects (a male and female dog) in the backyard and then there are 8 objects (dogs) in the backyard I am not delusional or lying. Sometimes, you know, people will not come up with the same answer that you do, and they will not be lying nor will they be delusional. They will have had different experiences than you do and they will view your question from a different perspective than you do and therefore come to a different conclusion than you do.

But 1+1 is not 8.

1+1+6 is though.

You cannot look at two objects and claim there are eight objects AND be telling the truth.

You have not delineated under what conditions that 1 + 1 = have to be under. You did not say anything about a time frame or that the two could not reproduce more units. You are calling me a liar because I didn't play by the secret hidden rules you had!

When presented with a problem, or a puzzle, I think of ways that wouldn't be true or apply them to practical applications which sometimes produce results so different from those "on paper," ie in theory. At a guess, I'd say that you don't think outside the box much, do you? Me, I like to think outside the box.


Last edited by gillyflower on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:12 am; edited 3 times in total

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:08 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
I'm sorry but this analogy is inadequate. I'm referring to abstract and formal logic. Not to what human mind's can or cannot invent.

Logic is independent from people's behavior.

that may be your religion; I'm agnostic toward the primacy of logic

what is the evidence against it?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:15 am

nope, not gonna play

not going to use the confines of your belief system to limit arguments
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:16 am

gillyflower wrote:
Celsus wrote:
gillyflower wrote:You start with 2 units and you end up with 8 units. There is no denying that. Also no one said in the rules that the end product had to resemble the beginning product, right? It is not false. It is simply something that you don't wish to accept as proof that 1 + 1 = 8. You can make new rules if you like to exclude reproduction in your supposition.

If I look at two objects (a male and female dog) in the backyard and then there are 8 objects (dogs) in the backyard I am not delusional or lying. Sometimes, you know, people will not come up with the same answer that you do, and they will not be lying nor will they be delusional. They will have had different experiences than you do and they will view your question from a different perspective than you do and therefore come to a different conclusion than you do.

But 1+1 is not 8.

1+1+6 is though.

You cannot look at two objects and claim there are eight objects AND be telling the truth.

You have not delineated under what conditions that 1 + 1 = have to be under. You did not say anything about a time frame or that the two could not reproduce more units. You are calling me a liar because I didn't play by the secret hidden rules you had!

When presented with a problem, or a puzzle, I think of ways that wouldn't be true or apply them to practical applications which sometimes produce results so different from those "on paper," ie in theory. At a guess, I'd say that you don't think outside the box much, do you? Me, I like to think outside the box.

I'm all for thinking outside of the box.

But that doesn't change the fact that looking at two objects and claim there are five objects is lying. Or delusional.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:17 am

Davelaw wrote:nope, not gonna play

not going to use the confines of your belief system to limit arguments

lol, copout. but ok.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:18 am

its not a cop out -you are limiting the structure with artificial logic
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:56 am

Davelaw wrote:its not a cop out -you are limiting the structure with artificial logic

artificial logic?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:00 am

artificial from artifice, i.e. "man-made", constructed, not occuring in nature
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:10 am

Davelaw wrote:artificial from artifice, i.e. "man-made", constructed, not occuring in nature

did man create or discover the laws of logic?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:26 am

there are no laws of logic


its just a random pattern
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:30 am

Celsus wrote:
gillyflower wrote:
Celsus wrote:
gillyflower wrote:You start with 2 units and you end up with 8 units. There is no denying that. Also no one said in the rules that the end product had to resemble the beginning product, right? It is not false. It is simply something that you don't wish to accept as proof that 1 + 1 = 8. You can make new rules if you like to exclude reproduction in your supposition.

If I look at two objects (a male and female dog) in the backyard and then there are 8 objects (dogs) in the backyard I am not delusional or lying. Sometimes, you know, people will not come up with the same answer that you do, and they will not be lying nor will they be delusional. They will have had different experiences than you do and they will view your question from a different perspective than you do and therefore come to a different conclusion than you do.

But 1+1 is not 8.

1+1+6 is though.

You cannot look at two objects and claim there are eight objects AND be telling the truth.

You have not delineated under what conditions that 1 + 1 = have to be under. You did not say anything about a time frame or that the two could not reproduce more units. You are calling me a liar because I didn't play by the secret hidden rules you had!

When presented with a problem, or a puzzle, I think of ways that wouldn't be true or apply them to practical applications which sometimes produce results so different from those "on paper," ie in theory. At a guess, I'd say that you don't think outside the box much, do you? Me, I like to think outside the box.

I'm all for thinking outside of the box.

But that doesn't change the fact that looking at two objects and claim there are five objects is lying. Or delusional.

But you didn't say that anyone was looking at two objects and claim that there is five objects.

Now you can after the fact claim that you have said that but you would be lying or delusional.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:35 am

I take it back. First you said the one thing, then in another post you qualified it as two things you were looking at right now.

So given that you have decided that under certain conditions where you rule out anything that doesn't fit your answer it lying, yes, everyone who has a different answer than you do is lying.

I'm glad that we could clear up all the business about who is lying.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:03 am

Davelaw wrote:there are no laws of logic

its just a random pattern

can you prove this?

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:08 am

gillyflower wrote:But you didn't say that anyone was looking at two objects and claim that there is five objects.

Now you can after the fact claim that you have said that but you would be lying or delusional.

I thought I was clear on that from the start ... I was not referring to what 1+1 could symbolize, etc. I was referring to the bare facts at a precise moment in time.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:22 am

No, you weren't clear about that at the start, and it was only later that you said that you meant it mean what you were looking at, not what anyone else might be looking at. And you get to decide what you are looking at and tell them what it is.

I don't really see the point of that. All it means is that you see what you want to see and the only right answer is your answer.

The point for me is that I really don't think it is a good debate tactic to start telling people that everyone who disagrees with you is a liar or delusional.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:23 am

gillyflower wrote:I take it back. First you said the one thing, then in another post you qualified it as two things you were looking at right now.

So given that you have decided that under certain conditions where you rule out anything that doesn't fit your answer it lying, yes, everyone who has a different answer than you do is lying.

I'm glad that we could clear up all the business about who is lying.

I'm sorry but when I put 2 apples in front of you and then 2 more and then ask you how many apples you see, then every answer which is not 4 is false.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:24 am

gillyflower wrote:No, you weren't clear about that at the start, and it was only later that you said that you meant it mean what you were looking at, not what anyone else might be looking at. And you get to decide what you are looking at and tell them what it is.

I don't really see the point of that. All it means is that you see what you want to see and the only right answer is your answer.

The point for me is that I really don't think it is a good debate tactic to start telling people that everyone who disagrees with you is a liar or delusional.

I am not calling people who disagree with me to be liars or to be delusional.

I am calling people who look at 4 objects and then claim there are actually 5 to be liars or delusional.

_________________
Eternity is really long, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
After your death you will be what you were before your birth. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Do check this out: Ideas worth spreading and radioLab!
avatar
Daldianus
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1039
Join date : 2009-07-25
Location : Luxembourg

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:11 pm

Celsus wrote:I'm all for thinking outside of the box.

I'm calling bullshit on that one, Daldi. I know this is a thread you began, but look at how your obsession has derailed it thus far. Somehow, you can't wrap your mind around the possibility that there could possibly exist another thought process that is alien to your's. And the idea kills you. This goes for spiritual beliefs as well. You would rather argue with a fence post than accept the fact that people can and will rationalize whatever they want for whatever reason they want. You can't imagine a universe or accepted logic outside of your own tiny sphere, and you have a melt down at the prospect that others could. Look at how long this one idea has possessed you. It's borderline insane for you to have argued it this far, much less side tracking a thread to do it. Why is it so impossible for you to accept the fact that there are others out there who will have a different concept of their reality than you? It's my not so professional position that this is what has gotten you into so much trouble in other debates.

Have you overlooked the fact that what Dave offered was an abstract idea? Nothing set in concrete, and certainly nothing to obsess over as you have? Most definitely nothing to accuse another poster of being irrational, or telling a lie. You are so intent that your logic has to be the norm, that you yourself have taken on the role of a raving lunatic. These days, I have more pleasure in watching post your pointless arguments over some abstract idea another poster has, which really has no value at all, except to pose an interesting hypothesis.

You wouldn't know thinking outside the box, if the box hit you on your noggin.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TPaine on Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:24 pm

Davelaw wrote:IMO, the reason for the Paulicians and all succeeding groups to be painted as manichean/gnostic lies in their virulent Iconoclastic beliefs and the church's defense of Icons was painted as a defense against Gnosticism


in other words the Church wasn't changing horses Icons were defended as a proof against gnosticism so any one against images was therefore either a Gnostic, a Muslim or Jewish


edit// why are you quoting adventist agit prop?

By the above theory they would then be accusing both Luther and Calvin of gnosticism, and neither comes close to matching the definition. I doubt that even Rome could sell that even to their own troops.
avatar
TPaine

Posts : 650
Join date : 2009-04-13
Location : Southeastern Tennessee

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:41 pm

they loss momemntum after th ebad press from the massacre of the Cathars or they prolly would have continued this tactic but neither Luther or Calvin were viruntly Iconaclastic like those before them or am i missing something?
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TPaine on Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:58 pm

Calvin wasn't iconoclastic at least as far as the RCC was concerned? What am I missing?
avatar
TPaine

Posts : 650
Join date : 2009-04-13
Location : Southeastern Tennessee

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:16 pm

TPaine wrote:Calvin wasn't iconoclastic at least as far as the RCC was concerned? What am I missing?

My ignorance; i was unware of these acts-they allowed religious art is some forms -so i didn't realize they had banned it in others

from wiki

Some of the Protestant reformers, in particular Andreas Karlstadt, Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin encouraged the removal of religious images by invoking the Decalogue's
prohibition of idolatry and the manufacture of graven images of God. As
a result, statues and images were damaged in spontaneous individual
attacks as well as unauthorised iconoclastic riots. However, in most
cases images were removed in an orderly manner by civil authorities in
the newly reformed cities and territories of Europe.
Significant iconoclastic riots took place in Zürich (in 1523), Copenhagen (1530), Münster (1534), Geneva (1535), Augsburg (1537), and Scotland (1559). The Seventeen Provinces (now the Netherlands and Belgium and parts of Northern France) were hit by a large wave of Protestant iconoclasm in the summer of 1566. This is called the "Beeldenstorm" and included such acts as the destruction of the statuary of the Monastery of Saint Lawrence in Steenvoorde after a "Hagenpreek", or field sermon, by Sebastiaan Matte; and the sacking of the Monastery of Saint Anthony after a sermon by Jacob de Buysere. The "Beeldenstorm" marked the start of the revolution against the Spanish forces and the Catholic church. See Flanders for more on its history.
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 7 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum