Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:24 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:The point about this whole argument is that, in our universe, 2+2=4.

We cannot feasably wrap our minds around concepts from another universe. Our minds are designed in, and work in, our universe. There is no way we can conceptualize what is and is not in another, any more than my cat can work out a lengthy algabreic equation.

It's just the way things are.

So in some other theoretical universe some guys could look at two objects and another two objects and then claim there are five objects and actually be right and truthful?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:32 pm

Yes, he could. I do it all the time in my imagination. So the way I see it, you are saying that in the worlds of imagination anything is possible. It is just in this one world we know that it isn't, correct?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:34 pm

Yup. Anything is possible if you're not bound by the same continuum.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:36 pm

gillyflower wrote:Yes, he could. I do it all the time in my imagination. So the way I see it, you are saying that in the worlds of imagination anything is possible. It is just in this one world we know that it isn't, correct?

How could he do this?? He'd be lying since there were only 4 objects, not 5.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:37 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Yup. Anything is possible if you're not bound by the same continuum.

In such a continuum 4=5?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:39 pm

I can imagine anything I want and so can he as long as it remains in one's imagination. It doesn't have to make any sense to anyone else but me. Now if I asked someone else to believe it, then it has to make sense to the other person. But that still doesn't make it real.

(I've been ordering fantasy books all morning. Smile)

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:39 pm

Not if the 5th object scientifically automatically appeared and was part of the original 4.

In in said place, they may find it totally unfathomable that here 2+2 only equals 4, and the 5th part doesn't come into play.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:41 pm

Problem is, things can be real in another universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:42 pm

In my universe 1 + 1 can = 8.

Mom + Dad = litter of 6 plus the original 2

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:44 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Problem is, things can be real in another universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

It's hypothetical. That's still in the Land of the Imagination until proven.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:46 pm

It's great.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:56 pm

gillyflower wrote:I can imagine anything I want and so can he as long as it remains in one's imagination. It doesn't have to make any sense to anyone else but me. Now if I asked someone else to believe it, then it has to make sense to the other person. But that still doesn't make it real.

(I've been ordering fantasy books all morning. Smile)

But that doesn't apply to my example.

You cannot look at 4 things and honestly and truthfully claim there are 5.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:57 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Not if the 5th object scientifically automatically appeared and was part of the original 4.

In in said place, they may find it totally unfathomable that here 2+2 only equals 4, and the 5th part doesn't come into play.

If a 5th object appears there are, d'oh, FIVE objects Smile

Not 4.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:59 pm

gillyflower wrote:In my universe 1 + 1 can = 8.

Then you're irrational and not obliged to the actual truth.

Mom + Dad = litter of 6 plus the original 2

No. Mom + Dad = 2 people. Not 6.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:14 pm

I beg to differ. All those little human babies are people too but I was really talking dogs.

I've seen the above example for myself, by the way. In my book "not rational" is not neutering your pets and expecting 1 male and 1 female to not equal more than what you started with.

Ed to add: Can I ask you why you called me a liar?

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TPaine on Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:41 pm

Davelaw wrote:
We only have the word of the Church (and its forged documents) that Cathars were anything like they were claimed. We do know they traced their roots to the Bogamils who traced their roots to the Paulicians and that the paulicians were never the Gnostic sect that was claimed by either Constaninople or Rome. In fact, we have the Key of Truth which pretty well makes the Paulicians proto-anabaptists except for their adoptionist stance which is supposed to be heresy but doesn't seem that far off to me and that is that Jesus only fully became the Son of God at His baptism.

Dave, there were almost as many sects of Gnostics in the early Christian era as there are sects of Protestants today. The Cathars roots do stretch back to the Bogamils and Paulicans, but also to the Manichaeans which was Gnostic in ideology. There are many sources on the web that tell the history of the Cathars, but I'll just link to one. It's easy enough to Google others.
http://www.cathar.info/1204_origins.htm
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:48 pm

I believe the manichean claims of origins for Paulicians, Bogamils and Cathars are Church propaganda-its been disproven for the Paulicians -there is no reason to believe that latter proganda is any more true
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:23 am

Davelaw wrote:I believe the manichean claims of origins for Paulicians, Bogamils and Cathars are Church propaganda-its been disproven for the Paulicians -there is no reason to believe that latter proganda is any more true
Dave, This is a link to a Deist site that traces the Cathars back to Manichean Gnosticism. I see no reason for the Deists to accept Catholic propaganda.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/gnostic_files/cather.htm
Now let's check the encyclopedia at Dictionary.com.
Cathars
Catharism was a name given to a Christian religious sect with dualistic and gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc region of France in the 11th century and flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries. Catharism had its roots in the Paulician movement in Armenia and the Bogomils of Bulgaria with whom the Paulicians merged. They also became influenced by dualist and, perhaps, Manichaean beliefs

http://www.reference.com/browse/Cathars

Paulicianism
Paulicians (Պավլիկյաններ) were a Gnostic and Manichaean Christian group which flourished between 650 and 872 in Anatolia, Armenia and the Eastern Themes of the Byzantine Empire. According to medieval Byzantine sources, the group's name was derived after the third century Bishop of Antioch, Paul of Samosata

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Paulicianism

Bogomilism
Bogomilism (Богомилство) is the Gnostic dualistic sect, the synthesis of Armenian Paulicianism and the Bulgarian Slavonic Church reform movement, which emerged in Bulgaria between 927 and 970 and spread into Byzantine Empire, Kievan Rus', Serbia, Bosnia, Italy and France.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Bogomilism

Manichaeism
Manichaeism (in Modern Persian آیین مانی Āyin e Māni; Chinese: 摩尼教) was one of the major Gnostic religions, originating in Sassanid Persia. Although most of the original writings of the founding prophet Mani (Syriac, ܡܐܢܝ, c. AD 210–276) have been lost, numerous translations and fragmentary texts have survived. Manichaeism thrived between the third and seventh centuries, and at its height was one of the most widespread religions in the world. Manichaean churches and scriptures existed as far east as China and as far west as the Roman empire. Manichaeism appears to have died out before the sixteenth century in southern China.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Manichaeism

Do you really think this encyclopedia, as well as the Deist site, fell for Catholic propaganda. On the other hand could it actually be possible that the Cathars actually held some Gnostic beliefs?
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:39 am

Paulicianism
Paulicians
(Պավլիկյաններ) were a Gnostic and Manichaean Christian group which
flourished between 650 and 872 in Anatolia, Armenia and the Eastern
Themes of the Byzantine Empire. According to medieval Byzantine
sources, the group's name was derived after the third century Bishop of
Antioch, Paul of Samosata

but we know that's not true we have Conybears translation of the Key of Truth which paints their community remarkedly similiar to the community of the Didache except for their adoptionism

moreover the Paulicians own documents trace their origins to disciple of Paul not to a bishop of Antioch


the Deist sources have bought into the massive propaganda

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Daldianus on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:07 am

gillyflower wrote:I beg to differ. All those little human babies are people too but I was really talking dogs.

Correct. But then you've got 8 'units', and not 2. If you look at Mom and Dad, you've got TWO people. If you look at Mom and Dad and the 6 kids/dogs then you've got EIGHT beings. Everything else is simply false.

I've seen the above example for myself, by the way. In my book "not rational" is not neutering your pets and expecting 1 male and 1 female to not equal more than what you started with.

Ed to add: Can I ask you why you called me a liar?

Well, if you look at 2 objects and claim that there are 8 then you're lying. Or delusional Wink

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by gillyflower on Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:39 am

You start with 2 units and you end up with 8 units. There is no denying that. Also no one said in the rules that the end product had to resemble the beginning product, right? It is not false. It is simply something that you don't wish to accept as proof that 1 + 1 = 8. You can make new rules if you like to exclude reproduction in your supposition.

If I look at two objects (a male and female dog) in the backyard and then there are 8 objects (dogs) in the backyard I am not delusional or lying. Sometimes, you know, people will not come up with the same answer that you do, and they will not be lying nor will they be delusional. They will have had different experiences than you do and they will view your question from a different perspective than you do and therefore come to a different conclusion than you do.

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:25 am

gillyflower wrote:
TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Problem is, things can be real in another universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

It's hypothetical. That's still in the Land of the Imagination until proven.

And your point? Now one has claimed that this a stated fact, not in our world for sure, and we don't even know if other worlds exist. But the possibilities exist.... that's the whole point. It's all to do with the possibilities.

I come from the school of thought that says nothing is impossible. If it weren't for possibilities, and imagination, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. We wouldn't even know that each other even existed. It was someone's brain child; their imagination that created the computer, and even more imagination and refining that got us to the point that we can send mail to someone, have them read it in an instant and reply to it. Think of cell phones! For goodness sake, people don't even talk on them any more, they text message. And then there's Twitter! That all began as someone's idea. A product of someone's over active imagination suggesting that 2+2 by god can actually equal 5. Twenty years ago, if someone would have suggested to Daldi that we'd be able to communicate in the manner we do today, he would have gone through the same convulsions he's done with this prospect Dave offered, ( which BTW TED and I seem to be in agreement with.) It's only an idea, folks. Dave just sorta tossed it out there, and I'm guessing it got the desired results.... Daldi blew a gasket. Clap No need to rearrange your life style over it at this moment. Close your eyes and let the possibilities soar! Wink

And Daldi........ BREATHE for god's sake Smile !

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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by TPaine on Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:53 am

Davelaw wrote:
but we know that's not true we have Conybears translation of the Key of Truth which paints their community remarkedly similiar to the community of the Didache except for their adoptionism

moreover the Paulicians own documents trace their origins to disciple of Paul not to a bishop of Antioch

the Deist sources have bought into the massive propaganda

Whose propaganda? If we assume that Conybears translation is accurate, and the Key of Truth is a legitimate Paulician document, their beliefs are heretical enough in the eyes of the RC Church of the 13th century to order their elimination and to sell it on those grounds. They wouldn't have to invent lies about Gnosticism.
The 37 points
of Paulician belief are very interesting.� They claimed to be the true, apostolic Church.� They taught that the Church consists of all baptized persons who preserve the apostolical traditions handed down by Christ.� Repentance, Baptism, and the Body and Blood of Christ are necessary for salvation.� All true baptism must be preceded by repentance and faith.� Therefore, Paulicians held, infant baptism is invalid, and the Latin, Greek and Armenian Catholic Churches who had accepted infant baptism thereby lost their Christianity and became a Satanic mimicry of the true faith.� If any of them, even their patriarchs, would rejoin the true Church, they must be baptized.� The candidate for baptism must be of mature age, as was Jesus of Nazareth, and personally request baptism.
����� Paulicians were against the Trinity belief, which they knew is unscriptural.� Mary was not a perpetual virgin, and she cannot intercede for us, for Christ is our only intercessor.� The idea of Purgatory is false and vain, for there is one last judgment for all, for which the quick and the dead (including saints) wait.� Images, pictures of Christ, crosses, incense, candles, etc., were condemned as idolatrous and unnecessary, alien to the teaching of Christ.
http://www.giveshare.org/newsletter/newsletter14.html
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:58 am

IMO, the reason for the Paulicians and all succeeding groups to be painted as manichean/gnostic lies in their virulent Iconoclastic beliefs and the church's defense of Icons was painted as a defense against Gnosticism


in other words the Church wasn't changing horses Icons were defended as a proof against gnosticism so any one against images was therefore either a Gnostic, a Muslim or Jewish


edit// why are you quoting adventist agit prop?
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Re: Who 'died' at the cross? The Son or The Trinity?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:11 pm

one example John of damascus in defense of Imagaes:

We do not change the boundaries marked out by
our fathers (Prov. 22.28): we keep the tradition we have received. If we begin to lay down
the law to the Church, even in the smallest thing, the whole edifice will fall to the
ground in no short time.
You look down upon matter and call it contemptible. This is what the Manicheans did,
but holy Scripture pronounces it to be good
for it says, "And God saw all that He had
made, and it was very good." (Gen. 2.31) I say matter is God's creation and a good
thing. Now, if you say it is bad, you say either that it is not from God, or you make Him
a cause of evil.
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