Core Values revisited

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:23 pm

Before leaving for the night, let me apologize for my churlish behavior. I've been switched from day shift to nights, and had from 10:30am the day of the switch up to approximately 5:30pm that afternoon to come to grips, and catch up on sleep enough to pull the shift. My internal clock is still out of sync, so now you see me before I've had that 4th or 5th cup of coffee that transforms me from a palpitating ass to simply an ass. Although I stand behind all I said.... (I actually believe the underlying points had merit) I went about expressing myself poorly. Please accept my most heartfelt apology. I don't want this site turning into a clone of the one we just left. I will (hopefully with your help pointing it out to me sooner) behave more civilly in the future.

John

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:02 pm

We all have our moments, John. I've had many in my days. Embarassed BTW, I really like your signature line!

I had a comment about the analogy of "the parent doing something that seems cruel to the immature and unknowing child" and how it could be a factor in the OT God actions. Eventually, children grow up and learn the lessons they didn't. Are we still children? Why do we still see many of the acts, stated as "commands of God", as less than desireable? I can't help but believe that, during that time, . . . man was "speaking for God", putting words in the mouth of their deity, for many reasons, though I'm sure it would be speculation if we attempted to talk about them. I just can't see the acts within the OT as decrees from any deity at all, . . . but the actions of man, . . . . and they seemed cruel, because people were rather cruel during that time. It seems to correspond with how people thought back then, and their warlike behavior. IF the actions found in the OT DID happen, I just can't place them at the doorstep of anyone other than the men who commanded a relatively large group of people.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:24 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:True enough, Dot. And I saw what happened to them by that very class of Christians I was referring to. They weren't realtm Christians, or are of the luke warm variety. Much the same as some when some Pagans start in on the fluff bunnies, I suppose. Not many people can handle it when a person chooses to color outside the lines.

But in case you aren't getting it, think about those who have sat up and told someone they are bound for hell because they don't follow such and such belief process. Alex.... Warlord has had this said to him.... and it plays on his mind. Jj has had the same thing said to her concerning her dead brother. This has been done not just in posts from rabid Christian types who think they have it all figured out, but in real life too. I had a grand mother who made that same pronouncement onto a cousin when the grandmother was on her death bed. This particular cousin, a girl, came to see her dying grand mother. Rather than express any appreciation for the act, or say a loving goodby.... in the normal sense of the word, this grandmother said "I''m sure glad I got a chance to see you before I died, because dressed they way you are, I know you'll never see me in heaven." The girl was dressed in a tee shirt and shorts with flip flops. She had to be all of 12 or 13 at the time. That broad brush you suggest I use isn't all that broad. it would take a very narrow brush to put a dot or two on the other type of Christians. But again as I said, I've seen it here in Pagan camps too.

Okay, that's pretty much how I interpreted your initial statement, so it seems to me that what you're talking about isn't merely Christians (although we've probably mostly experienced those since the majority of us have more contact with Christians) but those of any religious faith who lose their basic humanity in slavery to what they think the dogma demands they do to people, be that flying planes into buildings or saying truly ugly things.

As you yourself point out, that kind of nasty behavior isn't exclusive to Christians. Pagans play holier than thou, too.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:58 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:Afterthoughts...

Much though I dislike the idea, I think there's merit to the view that the acts of an omnipotent Deity (not necessarily the orthodox Christian one, btw) are as beyond our comprehension where good and evil are concerned as parental dictates can be to a child.

I expect that we can all think of instances where our childish judgment interpreted rules set for us by our parents as cruel. So, do we have any idea really what good and evil are?

Maybe our perceptions of the Christian OT deity, for example, as vengeful and cruel are as biased and immature as a child's view of parental meanness.

After all, our ideas of the natures of deities are probably quite limited perceptions, more than somewhat akin to those children have of their parents.

I haven't looked into this thread until tonight, but I have to say this is how I see things. We are so limited in our place and time and capacity that we really cannot (here and now) know the full picture. We can just do the best we can to try and figure it out and, IMO, do what we think is right and hope for the best.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:22 pm

John, meant to add to the above but my composing was curtailed by a hubby insisting he was about to expire from lack of nourishment: Apology accepted and situation understood.

TED, I think often of how long it can take humankind to figure out that "That's just the way it is" doesn't necessarily have to be the way whatever it is continues to be. For instance, who'd have thought twenty years ago that we'd EVER see same-sex marriage legalized ANYwhere in this country. Most of us were still getting used to the idea that gays ought not be forced to stay closeted.

When we have only moments of nobility arising ever so briefly out of masses of cruelty to each other, how can we have the sheer hubris to think that we comprehend the nature and acts of any deity (assuming that something of the sort in fact exist)??

At bottom, I think all our ideas of deities represent wishful thinking that somewhere there's something a helluva lot smarter and more in control of things than most of us.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:24 pm

That's my belief and that's what I really hope for. Of course, being the pan(en)theist it's my belief that everything is in perfect divine order (whether it looks that way or not).

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:23 am

Boxed In Just for the record. I'm slowly healing from the trauma of the shock to my system & beliefs. It's played havoc with my blood preasure, my atrial fibrillations, & my blood sugar levels.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:54 am

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:That's my belief and that's what I really hope for. Of course, being the pan(en)theist it's my belief that everything is in perfect divine order (whether it looks that way or not).

Sort of like the watchmaker? I particularly like that analogy. Now some Saudis I've had a chance to talk to tell me that where death is concerned, when born each person has a number assigned to them. And when that number comes up, it's simply your time. I know more than a few Baptist who actually believe something similar. This makes sense to me in the respect that (if you take Ecclesiastics literally) it's all pre ordained when one's time in this incarnation is ended. The ways or means for that time to end are immaterial. To us, a short life is tragic, and the taking of someone's life even more so. But, IMO, it's all part of the divine order that was set in play by the creator. To assume for any reason that a divine creator would take a life (such as a murder) simply because the person who died led a life that went against the grain of some other person's beliefs only causes unnecessary harm to those left behind to try and make sense out of everything that's happened. For those who believe that their god is a loving, involved caring deity, it tosses a gigantic monkey wrench in the belief process. Then comes more recrimination for the loss of faith, and the wheels keep going round and round.

And Alex, I'm glad to hear you're in recovery mode again. Letting go of the idea that there can be a loving god who for whatever the reason turns a cold shoulder can prevent a lot of medical bills. This isn't to say that the deities are totally uncaring. It is saying however that what happens the way it happens is none of our damned business. The deities had it figured out long before the creation of the world.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by jumbojava on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:50 pm

warlordofks wrote:Boxed In Just for the record. I'm slowly healing from the trauma of the shock to my system & beliefs. It's played havoc with my blood preasure, my atrial fibrillations, & my blood sugar levels.

Heya Alex, How you doing today? Smile


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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by jumbojava on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:51 pm

** JJ waves at Dot**

Heya Dot! I just realized we're nieghbors!

I live across the river in the Alton area. Very Happy
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:54 pm

Hadn't noticed your location, JJ.

Yeppers, close enough for government work.

Heya back atcha.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:46 pm

You know, . . . . I live in SW MO. Shocked
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:48 pm

Yeah, Deavon, I remember...you're a near-neighbor of us snooty easterners. < sassy wink! >
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:15 am

Yeah, . . . . . snooty pants!!! :-Þ

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Re: Core Values revisited

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