Core Values revisited

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:53 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
MaineCaptain wrote:I believe it happened, Dot, They are your UPG's. And I do not think they are delusions. I have ideas about delusions but words fail me and I would sound like I am having them.

But Dot I do believe what you experienced was quite real. That was an energetically charged time. Making experiences such as your possible.
I am sorry you lost a loved one in that tragedy.

Yeah, MC, deep down I believe these encounters were actual. There was a definite feeling of meeting an individual person with each one, even to specific mannerisms and ways of speaking.

Thanks for your sympathy.

Thank you for sharing that with us, Dot. I believe it happened too. It's that same feeling when people ask "how do you know it was real?" when someone says they have met spirits or gods. You just do.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by AutumnalTone on Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:46 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:
SeventhCrow wrote:Um...just so ya know, the Canaanites were never destroyed by the Hebrews.

Has anyone ever told you that you obsess over the most minute details of a story, and gloss over the important stuff?

Nope. It wouldn't be accurate.


Whistling Enough were destroyed to have certain writings about it in the bible.

If you take everything written in the Bible as literal history...well, I have a bridge to sell you. Great view of New York City from it. Charge a toll and you'll be rich!


The point, (which you obviously chose to overlook),

That point is one I chose not to comment on, to speak accurately. I have no issue with it. Why would you hallucinate that I overlooked something just because I didn't comment on it?


Is that a better explanation for you Crow? Rolling Eyes

I wasn't in need of further explanation. I was simply correcting some misinformation. Did I hurt your feelings by doing so?
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:19 am

SeventhCrow wrote:That point is one I chose not to comment on, to speak accurately. I have no issue with it. Why would you hallucinate that I overlooked something just because I didn't comment on it?

Then you missed the post, Crow. It was full of Christian's misrepresentatons as written in the bible. And done so for a bloody purpose!


John A. Cancienne wrote:Is that a better explanation for you Crow? Rolling Eyes

SeventhCrow wrote:I wasn't in need of further explanation. I was simply correcting some misinformation. Did I hurt your feelings by doing so?

If you're going to attempt to correct something so obviously spoken with tongue firmly planted in cheek, then show your lack of finess and correct all of it.......

Nuff said to you.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by AutumnalTone on Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:30 pm

So I did hurt your feelings. Sorry about that--wasn't intentional.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:35 pm

I don't hear many men use the term "Did I hurt your feelings?" when they are discussing something with women except when they want to put them down. Do you men say "Did I hurt your feelings?" in real life to other men when you are talking to them? I'm curious.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:17 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:

If you're going to attempt to correct something so obviously spoken with tongue firmly planted in cheek, then show your lack of finess and correct all of it.......

Isn't it possible that Crow took you to be serious as I did? I didn't realize until you said so just now that you were joking...such being the hazards of not having the nonverbal cues of ironic tone of voice, a raised eyebrow and other hints that what is being said isn't intended to be taken seriously.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:16 pm

gillyflower wrote:I don't hear many men use the term "Did I hurt your feelings?" when they are discussing something with women except when they want to put them down. Do you men say "Did I hurt your feelings?" in real life to other men when you are talking to them? I'm curious.

Nah. Just Crows way of being obnoxious. Reminds me of someone else who when they read something that didn't jive with what they considered to be truth. They forgot the underlying current of the message completely and focused on a trivial matter. It's more like his feelings were bruised.

As a rule, men could give a damn about hurt feelings, other than the in the sarcastic sense. I tend to be guilty of that.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:40 pm

Thanks! Well, I never know... you guys could, after the door to the restroom swings shut, hold hands and sing Kumbaya over the urinal after you reassure yourselves that no one's feelings have been hurt by your macho acts.

Smile

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:48 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:
John A. Cancienne wrote:

If you're going to attempt to correct something so obviously spoken with tongue firmly planted in cheek, then show your lack of finesse and correct all of it.......

Isn't it possible that Crow took you to be serious as I did? I didn't realize until you said so just now that you were joking...such being the hazards of not having the nonverbal cues of ironic tone of voice, a raised eyebrow and other hints that what is being said isn't intended to be taken seriously.

I seem to recall you saying something once about your husband being Jewish. So if my memory is correct, or even if there is one Jew possibly reading this post, why didn't someone focus on another piece of misinformation? Were the Jews really the ones who crucified Jesus? No.... These are Christian concepts that have been handed down throughout history to create harm, and separate people. All of the instances I mentioned were just that.... one fact after another, even though false, to use to create the us vs them game. The same with this god of love the Christians have going on. Just take a stroll through any bible, look at all of the unloving acts committed by this god of love and tell me what conclusions you might come to .

How anyone could conceptualize a god of love with all of the bad shit that happens, then devise another god (if not a god, at least with god-like strengths) of pure evil. Us verses them. And most of us have bought the ticket. Look at the end results of accepting this way of believing. Alex is having a melt down over the evil shit he has had to endure. And this god of pure love allows the sins of the father to pass down to only that one son? I don't accept this idea. But the truth of it all is..... no god, good or evil had a hand to play in all of this. That's why the thing in the beginning. Shit just happens. It's not the Alex's fault, and certainly not any fault of any deity. Joking Oz? I was deadly serious. This fantasy world folks live in of a god of love, and another of evil is just what I said... a way to separate and divide. No god of love could sit back, and allow any of the things I mentioned to happen. Even if he didn't instigate it himself, he certainly wouldn't allow others to do it. That being said, the Twin Towers could never have happened, or if it could under this god of love, the guy who stopped off to buy the donuts for the office wouldn't have been just 5 minutes late, sparing him from the crash. The guy who at the last minute would not have canceled his flight. These are two acts one could associate with this god of pure love. So who was watching over those who died? The god of pure hate? How does a god of pure love decide who wins the little league ball games? One team wasn't s religious as the other? Or at least as spiritual? Didn't say the pregame prayer right? How do you explain this to the ones who loose the game? The god of love just loved the other team more?

So you guys missed my underlying message. I can deal with that. I'll find new examples in the future.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:08 pm

Oh, I get it now. Christians play Us vs. THEM but you don't, John.

Thanks for explaining that to me.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by AutumnalTone on Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:35 pm

As I said, John, sorry to hurt your little feelers!
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:12 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:
John A. Cancienne wrote:

If you're going to attempt to correct something so obviously spoken with tongue firmly planted in cheek, then show your lack of finesse and correct all of it.......

Isn't it possible that Crow took you to be serious as I did? I didn't realize until you said so just now that you were joking...such being the hazards of not having the nonverbal cues of ironic tone of voice, a raised eyebrow and other hints that what is being said isn't intended to be taken seriously.

I seem to recall you saying something once about your husband being Jewish. So if my memory is correct, or even if there is one Jew possibly reading this post, why didn't someone focus on another piece of misinformation? Were the Jews really the ones who crucified Jesus? No.... These are Christian concepts that have been handed down throughout history to create harm, and separate people. All of the instances I mentioned were just that.... one fact after another, even though false, to use to create the us vs them game. The same with this god of love the Christians have going on. Just take a stroll through any bible, look at all of the unloving acts committed by this god of love and tell me what conclusions you might come to .

How anyone could conceptualize a god of love with all of the bad shit that happens, then devise another god (if not a god, at least with god-like strengths) of pure evil. Us verses them. And most of us have bought the ticket. Look at the end results of accepting this way of believing. Alex is having a melt down over the evil shit he has had to endure. And this god of pure love allows the sins of the father to pass down to only that one son? I don't accept this idea. But the truth of it all is..... no god, good or evil had a hand to play in all of this. That's why the thing in the beginning. Shit just happens. It's not the Alex's fault, and certainly not any fault of any deity. Joking Oz? I was deadly serious. This fantasy world folks live in of a god of love, and another of evil is just what I said... a way to separate and divide. No god of love could sit back, and allow any of the things I mentioned to happen. Even if he didn't instigate it himself, he certainly wouldn't allow others to do it. That being said, the Twin Towers could never have happened, or if it could under this god of love, the guy who stopped off to buy the donuts for the office wouldn't have been just 5 minutes late, sparing him from the crash. The guy who at the last minute would not have canceled his flight. These are two acts one could associate with this god of pure love. So who was watching over those who died? The god of pure hate? How does a god of pure love decide who wins the little league ball games? One team wasn't s religious as the other? Or at least as spiritual? Didn't say the pregame prayer right? How do you explain this to the ones who loose the game? The god of love just loved the other team more?

So you guys missed my underlying message. I can deal with that. I'll find new examples in the future.

I for one didn't miss John's underlying message. And as far as for some of what John posted concerning myself, I took no offense. Because there was no offense to take. I've known John too long. He's one of my best friends, along with Dave & Ebon. And sometimes good friends have to tell you things that you would rather not hear. I don't expect my friends to agree with me all the time. And as I make new friends here I would expect you to tell me when you think I'm being the south end of a north bound horse. That's what friends do for each other.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:43 pm

SeventhCrow wrote:As I said, John, sorry to hurt your little feelers!

Yes, you've said that three times now. It really bugs you that he doesn't bite, doesn't it?

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:44 pm

warlordofks wrote:
John A. Cancienne wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:
John A. Cancienne wrote:

If you're going to attempt to correct something so obviously spoken with tongue firmly planted in cheek, then show your lack of finesse and correct all of it.......

Isn't it possible that Crow took you to be serious as I did? I didn't realize until you said so just now that you were joking...such being the hazards of not having the nonverbal cues of ironic tone of voice, a raised eyebrow and other hints that what is being said isn't intended to be taken seriously.

I seem to recall you saying something once about your husband being Jewish. So if my memory is correct, or even if there is one Jew possibly reading this post, why didn't someone focus on another piece of misinformation? Were the Jews really the ones who crucified Jesus? No.... These are Christian concepts that have been handed down throughout history to create harm, and separate people. All of the instances I mentioned were just that.... one fact after another, even though false, to use to create the us vs them game. The same with this god of love the Christians have going on. Just take a stroll through any bible, look at all of the unloving acts committed by this god of love and tell me what conclusions you might come to .

How anyone could conceptualize a god of love with all of the bad shit that happens, then devise another god (if not a god, at least with god-like strengths) of pure evil. Us verses them. And most of us have bought the ticket. Look at the end results of accepting this way of believing. Alex is having a melt down over the evil shit he has had to endure. And this god of pure love allows the sins of the father to pass down to only that one son? I don't accept this idea. But the truth of it all is..... no god, good or evil had a hand to play in all of this. That's why the thing in the beginning. Shit just happens. It's not the Alex's fault, and certainly not any fault of any deity. Joking Oz? I was deadly serious. This fantasy world folks live in of a god of love, and another of evil is just what I said... a way to separate and divide. No god of love could sit back, and allow any of the things I mentioned to happen. Even if he didn't instigate it himself, he certainly wouldn't allow others to do it. That being said, the Twin Towers could never have happened, or if it could under this god of love, the guy who stopped off to buy the donuts for the office wouldn't have been just 5 minutes late, sparing him from the crash. The guy who at the last minute would not have canceled his flight. These are two acts one could associate with this god of pure love. So who was watching over those who died? The god of pure hate? How does a god of pure love decide who wins the little league ball games? One team wasn't s religious as the other? Or at least as spiritual? Didn't say the pregame prayer right? How do you explain this to the ones who loose the game? The god of love just loved the other team more?

So you guys missed my underlying message. I can deal with that. I'll find new examples in the future.

I for one didn't miss John's underlying message. And as far as for some of what John posted concerning myself, I took no offense. Because there was no offense to take. I've known John too long. He's one of my best friends, along with Dave & Ebon. And sometimes good friends have to tell you things that you would rather not hear. I don't expect my friends to agree with me all the time. And as I make new friends here I would expect you to tell me when you think I'm being the south end of a north bound horse. That's what friends do for each other.

I'm glad that you didn't. I think both you and John are good people.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by TPaine on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:10 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:

I seem to recall you saying something once about your husband being Jewish. So if my memory is correct, or even if there is one Jew possibly reading this post, why didn't someone focus on another piece of misinformation? Were the Jews really the ones who crucified Jesus? No.... These are Christian concepts that have been handed down throughout history to create harm, and separate people. All of the instances I mentioned were just that.... one fact after another, even though false, to use to create the us vs them game. The same with this god of love the Christians have going on. Just take a stroll through any bible, look at all of the unloving acts committed by this god of love and tell me what conclusions you might come to .

John, if you want to get technical, Jesus was allegedly executed by order of Pontius Pilate who feared a rebellion in Jerusalem since there had been several at that time around Palestine. Some Jewish leaders who feared that Jesus could topple their authority were eager to help Pilate. The facts of the matter are, there are only two non-Christian sources that even mention Jesus, and both are of somewhat questionable value. The first comes from Book 15 of the Annals written by Roman historian Publius Tacitus (ca. 56 – ca. 117) written in 116 CE. Tacitus is describing how Nero blamed his burning of Rome on the Christians. He goes on to explain that these Christians were the followers of the executed Christus.
auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat
The trouble with this quote is that Tacitus (a scholar) calls Pilate a procurator as did the second non-Christian source Flavius Josephus. Pilate's rank was a prefect when he was in Judea yet the scholarly Tacitus got it wrong. Or was he actually the one who wrote the passage? Josephus could be excused for making such a mistake since he wrote in Greek, not Latin. Probably the most controversial in all of Josephus' writings is in his description of Jesus in book 18 of the Antiquities of the Jews.
At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. He was the Messiah, and when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.(Ant. 18.3.3)
It turns out that it was the Christians who copied Josephus' writings throughout the ages, not the Jews. It's also known that Josephus was a Jew and did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. If we strip the Christian Scribes' additions from the paragraph, we get a statement much more in line with Josephus' beliefs.
At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews, and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him has not died out. (Meier 1991, 61)

John A. Cancienne wrote:
How anyone could conceptualize a god of love with all of the bad shit that happens, then devise another god (if not a god, at least with god-like strengths) of pure evil. Us verses them. And most of us have bought the ticket. Look at the end results of accepting this way of believing. Alex is having a melt down over the evil shit he has had to endure. And this god of pure love allows the sins of the father to pass down to only that one son? I don't accept this idea. But the truth of it all is..... no god, good or evil had a hand to play in all of this. That's why the thing in the beginning. Shit just happens. It's not the Alex's fault, and certainly not any fault of any deity. Joking Oz? I was deadly serious. This fantasy world folks live in of a god of love, and another of evil is just what I said... a way to separate and divide. No god of love could sit back, and allow any of the things I mentioned to happen. Even if he didn't instigate it himself, he certainly wouldn't allow others to do it. That being said, the Twin Towers could never have happened, or if it could under this god of love, the guy who stopped off to buy the donuts for the office wouldn't have been just 5 minutes late, sparing him from the crash. The guy who at the last minute would not have canceled his flight. These are two acts one could associate with this god of pure love. So who was watching over those who died? The god of pure hate? How does a god of pure love decide who wins the little league ball games? One team wasn't s religious as the other? Or at least as spiritual? Didn't say the pregame prayer right? How do you explain this to the ones who loose the game? The god of love just loved the other team more?

As I said in an earlier post, I don't believe in a "happy-pappy" God whose job is to make everything right. The Deist God is a watchmaker god who created the universe (the watch), wound it up, and now allows the universe to run according to the way it was designed to do. He or She as the case may be will only intervene if the watch fails to perform correctly. At such a point, the watchmaker will repair the problem.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
So you guys missed my underlying message. I can deal with that. I'll find new examples in the future.

I certainly hope I didn't miss the message,
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:37 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I don't hear many men use the term "Did I hurt your feelings?" when they are discussing something with women except when they want to put them down. Do you men say "Did I hurt your feelings?" in real life to other men when you are talking to them? I'm curious.

Nah. Just Crows way of being obnoxious. Reminds me of someone else who when they read something that didn't jive with what they considered to be truth. They forgot the underlying current of the message completely and focused on a trivial matter. It's more like his feelings were bruised.

As a rule, men could give a damn about hurt feelings, other than the in the sarcastic sense. I tend to be guilty of that.

Historic accuracy is important, all the more so when the fellow who is pointing out the discrepancy is a Caananite Recon... I'm sure you can appreciate that, considering how important knowledge was to the Celts?

I'm sure the point you were making was understood, some people like to nit pick (I'm one of 'em), especially when its something near and dear to us...

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:11 am

DotNotInOz wrote:Oh, I get it now. Christians play Us vs. THEM but you don't, John.

Thanks for explaining that to me.

Putting words in my mouth now, Dot? (shrugs)I didn't set up the game plan; I just try to live within the boundaries. If you have found a better way, I'd be glad to have you share it with me. I've got nothing against learning, or spiritual growth. Smile

And since Crowe has suggested a total of three times now that he's sorry he hurt my feelers, perhaps he's the one with the bent tentacles. Crowe, statement read, understood, and filed away for future dealings with you. Got it. Relax now and get off of your pedestal. Goodbye

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:29 am

The thread sure took a bad turn somewhere, didn't it?

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:30 am

Exactly, Gilly.

I'm tired of the sniping and nitpicking and sorry that I lapsed into playing that game. Enough already.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:49 am

To get back to something resembling a rational discussion:

John remarks in part:
These are Christian concepts that have been handed down throughout history to create harm, and separate people. All of the instances I mentioned were just that.... one fact after another, even though false, to use to create the us vs them game. The same with this god of love the Christians have going on. Just take a stroll through any bible, look at all of the unloving acts committed by this god of love and tell me what conclusions you might come to .

You'd have a point if it were not for the fact that not all Christians accede to the beliefs you ascribe to them as if Christians have generically upheld all of those beliefs throughout history as well as today.

Tarring Christianity over the ages with an all-encompassing swipe of the old stereotyping brush seems to me an injustice to a diverse religion that historically has been an amalgamation of beliefs about the nature of God.

It seems I need you to spell out your underlying message, John. Apparently, I'm not getting it.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:13 pm

It has gone poorly, can we be nice now? Every time we have these disagreements my feeling are bruised. Come on guys you all have great points. We do not want to become the other site.

This place was born with the idea of mutual respect.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:07 pm

Afterthoughts...

Much though I dislike the idea, I think there's merit to the view that the acts of an omnipotent Deity (not necessarily the orthodox Christian one, btw) are as beyond our comprehension where good and evil are concerned as parental dictates can be to a child.

I expect that we can all think of instances where our childish judgment interpreted rules set for us by our parents as cruel. So, do we have any idea really what good and evil are?

Maybe our perceptions of the Christian OT deity, for example, as vengeful and cruel are as biased and immature as a child's view of parental meanness.

After all, our ideas of the natures of deities are probably quite limited perceptions, more than somewhat akin to those children have of their parents.
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by gillyflower on Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:23 pm

My thoughts on an omnipotent Deity that is beyond our comprehension and has a vastly different idea about good and evil .... all that really matters to me is my day to day life. I know the difference between good and evil and if a deity has a different set of values? It is, at that point, saying "I may seem to do really evil things and yes, I kill a lot of people and torture them before they finally die, but hey, it's all good! Trust me, I'm the good guy."

If I was that kind of parent to my children, I would not expect to be loved. Feared, yes but not loved. I don't really want to go to that beings idea of a good afterlife either. It just might not match up with my ideas of a good afterlife, since we are so different and all.

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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:43 pm

Once again, Gilly's signature comes into play.


Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will
not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the
virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you
should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be
gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the
memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius


Good and evil are not incomprehensible, and any god who would make them so is not worth following.

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Edward Albee
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Re: Core Values revisited

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:47 am

DotNotInOz wrote:To get back to something resembling a rational discussion:

John remarks in part:
These are Christian concepts that have been handed down throughout history to create harm, and separate people. All of the instances I mentioned were just that.... one fact after another, even though false, to use to create the us vs them game. The same with this god of love the Christians have going on. Just take a stroll through any bible, look at all of the unloving acts committed by this god of love and tell me what conclusions you might come to .

You'd have a point if it were not for the fact that not all Christians accede to the beliefs you ascribe to them as if Christians have generically upheld all of those beliefs throughout history as well as today.

Tarring Christianity over the ages with an all-encompassing swipe of the old stereotyping brush seems to me an injustice to a diverse religion that historically has been an amalgamation of beliefs about the nature of God.

It seems I need you to spell out your underlying message, John. Apparently, I'm not getting it.



True enough, Dot. And I saw what happened to them by that very class of Christians I was referring to. They weren't realtm Christians, or are of the luke warm variety. Much the same as some when some Pagans start in on the fluff bunnies, I suppose. Not many people can handle it when a person chooses to color outside the lines.

But in case you aren't getting it, think about those who have sat up and told someone they are bound for hell because they don't follow such and such belief process. Alex.... Warlord has had this said to him.... and it plays on his mind. Jj has had the same thing said to her concerning her dead brother. This has been done not just in posts from rabid Christian types who think they have it all figured out, but in real life too. I had a grand mother who made that same pronouncement onto a cousin when the grandmother was on her death bed. This particular cousin, a girl, came to see her dying grand mother. Rather than express any appreciation for the act, or say a loving goodby.... in the normal sense of the word, this grandmother said "I''m sure glad I got a chance to see you before I died, because dressed they way you are, I know you'll never see me in heaven." The girl was dressed in a tee shirt and shorts with flip flops. She had to be all of 12 or 13 at the time. That broad brush you suggest I use isn't all that broad. it would take a very narrow brush to put a dot or two on the other type of Christians. But again as I said, I've seen it here in Pagan camps too.

And so far as the misconception of the Christian god... As a parent, I've made some tough calls. It was no picnic for a kid whose dad is a cop in a small town either. But I never killed one of my kids for doing something wrong.... And believe me, I had a son who I honestly believe I could have murdered in front of witnesses and no court would have ever convicted me. He sorta turned out OK, but we didn't know for sure back then. I never placed my kids in some place meant for eternal torture and torment either. Like was said earlier, if I were that sort of parent, I would be feared;that's for sure. And once old enough to run, I'm sure they would have run as hard and as fast and as far as they could to get away and try to mend the broken pieces. We all have certain conceptions of what our deities ought to be like. And by and large, I'm OK with that. But I believe, in the same sense as TPaine, the creator god is like the watch maker. Once the watch is made, and on someone's wrist, the watch maker won't be coming in every day to wind the thing for the new owner.

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Re: Core Values revisited

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