Another refugee from Bnet arriving

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Daldianus on Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:08 pm

LeahOne wrote:*sigh* It's hard to turn 'em down when they arrive at your door.....husband's family has figured out not to serve us pork products, but one of his uncles sent us some from out on the Cape.

As for the 'big no-no', we are Recon/Reform. In point of fact, 'not kosher' is 'not kosher', even if it's beef, chicken or (scaled) fish. And kashrut falls mostly under 'ritual observance' as opposed to 'ethics'.

Actually, the lobsters don't find out they're in pain soon enough to be upset - which is the idea behind kosher slaughtering. (And these poor guys were sitting in a cooler with dry ice, so they were kind of 'slow' to begin with). Along with treating the assorted critters with compassion before they get turned into dinner.

In my vision of a perfect world, borscht(Russian beet soup) would be treyf....but I can't think of a theologically-based reason for that!

But doesn't kosher slaughter mean that the animal will simply bleed to death? I find that more cruel than simply killing it with one shot (or bolt or electro shock or whatever).

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by LeahOne on Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:33 pm

No, it's more involved than that. First of all, the animals are 'secluded from seeing the ones ahead of them get killed. And the 'bleeding' involved is via a single slash across the throat, opening the carotid artery. The knife is so sharp, the animal loses consciousness before it can register any pain - which is the requirement for kosher slaughtering. And the knife is checked after each single use: if there's any nick on the blade, then the animal just killed is deemed 'unkosher' , as it may have felt pain due to the blade hanging up...

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Daldianus on Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

LeahOne wrote:No, it's more involved than that. First of all, the animals are 'secluded from seeing the ones ahead of them get killed. And the 'bleeding' involved is via a single slash across the throat, opening the carotid artery. The knife is so sharp, the animal loses consciousness before it can register any pain - which is the requirement for kosher slaughtering. And the knife is checked after each single use: if there's any nick on the blade, then the animal just killed is deemed 'unkosher' , as it may have felt pain due to the blade hanging up...

That sounds like theory, how is the actual practice? Wink

And the animal looses consciousness immediately??

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by LeahOne on Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:49 pm

And did I mention the rabbi standing around to supervise?

I can't vouch for the actual practice since I've never been a shochet. But the weight of deception in this case would be a very heavy sin indeed. I know my conscience couldn't bear it: I'd hope that shochets are at least as sensitive as I!

The animal should lose consciousness in fewer seconds than it takes the pain receptors to register. As anyone who's accidently cut themselves with a sharp blade can testify, that could be a while (I did it once down to the bone at the base of my thumb, and only realized the problem as I spread the edges of the cut apart and the air hit places....eeeeeeeeeeewwww!)

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by tmarie64 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:54 pm

Actually, cels, if the carotid is cut, the animal is probably dead before its brain has time to register the pain of the cut.
It is actually a far less cruel and far more efficient way to kill animals, as opposed to a sledghammer blow to the head.

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Daldianus on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:09 pm

tmarie64 wrote:Actually, cels, if the carotid is cut, the animal is probably dead before its brain has time to register the pain of the cut.
It is actually a far less cruel and far more efficient way to kill animals, as opposed to a sledghammer blow to the head.

Ok, I hope so! I'm not an expert on slaughtering anyway ...

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by MaineCaptain on Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:51 pm

Welcome Celsus!! Very Happy Nice to see you here.

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:01 pm

Hmmm...caulk is white... Laughing

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by John T Mainer on Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:07 pm

Celsus wrote:
LeahOne wrote:No, it's more involved than that. First of all, the animals are 'secluded from seeing the ones ahead of them get killed. And the 'bleeding' involved is via a single slash across the throat, opening the carotid artery. The knife is so sharp, the animal loses consciousness before it can register any pain - which is the requirement for kosher slaughtering. And the knife is checked after each single use: if there's any nick on the blade, then the animal just killed is deemed 'unkosher' , as it may have felt pain due to the blade hanging up...

That sounds like theory, how is the actual practice? Wink

And the animal looses consciousness immediately??

When both common carotids are cut, the blood pressure loss and deoxygenation of the brain takes you out of consciousness faster than you can process the awareness of the pain. Death takes time (longer than most think), but loss of higher functions is really quick. The problem with decentralized nervous systems in invertebrates is that the brain is just the one node that processes visual information as well as its local functions, but the rest of the nodes will continue on until they die off altogether. You need a systemic shock, not a single coup de gras.

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by jumbojava on Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:17 pm

LeahOne wrote:No, it's more involved than that. First of all, the animals are 'secluded from seeing the ones ahead of them get killed. And the 'bleeding' involved is via a single slash across the throat, opening the carotid artery. The knife is so sharp, the animal loses consciousness before it can register any pain - which is the requirement for kosher slaughtering. And the knife is checked after each single use: if there's any nick on the blade, then the animal just killed is deemed 'unkosher' , as it may have felt pain due to the blade hanging up...

Um, no offense, but have you seen one of these slaughter houses in action? I've seen hidden video from one and it was beyond horrific... affraid
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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:41 pm

Teka wrote:Maybe we have found a tolerance test here. LOL Probably if you can eat green jello you can get along with anyone. In our family we mash cream cheese and pears together and stir into green jello. Looks like pale green stuff with white dots. Right tasty, sacramental food for a eco friendly congregation?

EEEEEWWW! Jello is simply nasty.

I used to love the stuff until I got onto a healthy eating kick some years ago. Now, I can't imagine how I ever put that yukky junk into my mouth.

If that's the test, just tattoo "Irredeemably intolerant" on my forehead. I'll wear it happily, thank you very much.

Green, I like...my favorite color. Does that get me a few extra credit points, mebbe?
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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:12 am

MaineCaptain wrote:Welcome Celsus!! Very Happy Nice to see you here.

Thank you Smile

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by LeahOne on Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:20 pm

JJ - hiya! No, I wouldn't expect it to be pretty. I'd be interested in seeing who made such a video - and even more in knowing what their alleged motives were.

I'm NOT thinking of militant vegans, but of groups which are willing to go to great lengths to oppose anything they identify as Jewish.

The relevant 'question', IMHO is not 'Are slaughterhouses icky/gross/disgusting?' but rather 'Are properly-run kosher slaughterhouses any better or worse than the nonkosher ones?'

And I acknowledge I haven't done research on that topic. (I have, though, done research into the groups trying to put bills through state legislatures forbidding kosher slaughtering as 'cruel'...)

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Chokmah on Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:01 am

Good morning everyone. Nice to find this place.
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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by gillyflower on Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:28 am

Welcome! I hope you like it here!

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:10 am

Chokmah wrote:Good morning everyone. Nice to find this place.

Hi Choke! Good to see ya, and welcome.

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Kartari on Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:28 am

Hey Chokmah!
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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:30 pm

Welcome Chocky. Very Happy

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:03 pm

Welcome Chokmah Smile

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Teka on Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:12 pm

Dot you know you don't have to eat jello, since we seem to be talking about things you bring to a pot luck at church, you just bring your covered dish and we'll all be surprised and pleased.

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Daldianus on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:21 am

Chokmah wrote:Good morning everyone. Nice to find this place.

Hello Chok Smile

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:48 am

,

Almost forgot what you look like.

'bout time.


Very Happy

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

Post by Beribee on Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:13 pm

Welcome, Chokmah!

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Re: Another refugee from Bnet arriving

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