Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:21 am

Davelaw wrote:I'm not Catholic or even High Church; so I'm not sure what they teach about the trinity. My low church understanding is one person with three roles.

Then, as Celsus aptly points out, that makes Jesus rather strange in that he'd pray to himself for help in times of trouble. He might as well have said, "Myself, Myself, why have I forsaken Me?" [Matthew 27:46] when dying on the cross.
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:22 am

Davelaw wrote:Fact remains the messengers of the Lord in the Old Testament were worshipped as God; the the Will Of God was seen as God

You mean the angels of God were seen as God?

the trinity is merely a doctrinal statement clarifying something demonstrated throughout scripture

That's an opinion. Not a fact.

You missed these questions:

- That makes no sense. Either the human vessel ('The Son') equated to God or he didn't. Please explain how a third option would be possible?

- So it was Jesus who drowned the puppies and babies during the Flood?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:22 am

DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I'm not Catholic or even High Church; so I'm not sure what they teach about the trinity. My low church understanding is one person with three roles.

Then, as Celsus aptly points out, that makes Jesus rather strange in that he'd pray to himself for help in times of trouble. He might as well have said, "Myself, Myself, why have I forsaken Me?" [Matthew 27] when dying on the cross.

Exactly. Dave seems to have missed that one too ...

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:23 am

DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I'm not Catholic or even High Church; so I'm not sure what they teach about the trinity. My low church understanding is one person with three roles.

Then, as Celsus aptly points out, that makes Jesus rather strange in that he'd pray to himself for help in times of trouble. He might as well have said, "Myself, Myself, why have I forsaken Me?" [Matthew 27] when dying on the cross.

No, because Jesus (that part of God contained in a Human vessel ) was in Time and in History. He's praying to the eternal being that remains outside of time and History
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:25 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:Fact remains the messengers of the Lord in the Old Testament were worshipped as God; the the Will Of God was seen as God

You mean the angels of God were seen as God?

the trinity is merely a doctrinal statement clarifying something demonstrated throughout scripture

That's an opinion. Not a fact.

You missed these questions:

- That makes no sense. Either the human vessel ('The Son') equated to God or he didn't. Please explain how a third option would be possible?

- So it was Jesus who drowned the puppies and babies during the Flood?

who says they were angels?

didn't miss it; agreed in a way, the Logos was responsible for all acts of God in the Old Testament-He had not yet been born as Jesus
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:27 am

Davelaw wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:I'm not Catholic or even High Church; so I'm not sure what they teach about the trinity. My low church understanding is one person with three roles.

Then, as Celsus aptly points out, that makes Jesus rather strange in that he'd pray to himself for help in times of trouble. He might as well have said, "Myself, Myself, why have I forsaken Me?" [Matthew 27] when dying on the cross.

No, because Jesus (that part of God contained in a Human vessel ) was in Time and in History. He's praying to the eternal being that remains outside of time and History

So there were two different and independent entities?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:28 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:Fact remains the messengers of the Lord in the Old Testament were worshipped as God; the the Will Of God was seen as God

You mean the angels of God were seen as God?

the trinity is merely a doctrinal statement clarifying something demonstrated throughout scripture

That's an opinion. Not a fact.

You missed these questions:

- That makes no sense. Either the human vessel ('The Son') equated to God or he didn't. Please explain how a third option would be possible?

- So it was Jesus who drowned the puppies and babies during the Flood?

who says they were angels?

The OT at times. What about the Angel of Death? Was that God too?

didn't miss it; agreed in a way, the Logos was responsible for all acts of God in the Old Testament-He had not yet been born as Jesus

So the entity later known as Jesus was a brutal killer in its first incarnation? Shocked

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:28 am

[quote="Celsus"]
Davelaw wrote:

- That makes no sense. Either the human vessel ('The Son') equated to God or he didn't. Please explain how a third option would be possible?

Then it makes no sense; not every thing has to make sense. the Logos manifested itself as flesh; Flesh is limited God is unlimited; all of God could not be contained in a limited container.
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:30 am

Davelaw wrote:Then it makes no sense; not every thing has to make sense. the Logos manifested itself as flesh; Flesh is limited God is unlimited; all of God could not be contained in a limited container.

So you're pulling the 'it's all a mystery' card already?? Laughing

But if the flesh is limited then how could this flesh named Jesus be unlimited? Or was Jesus limited?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:31 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:Fact remains the messengers of the Lord in the Old Testament were worshipped as God; the the Will Of God was seen as God

You mean the angels of God were seen as God?

the trinity is merely a doctrinal statement clarifying something demonstrated throughout scripture

That's an opinion. Not a fact.

You missed these questions:

- That makes no sense. Either the human vessel ('The Son') equated to God or he didn't. Please explain how a third option would be possible?

- So it was Jesus who drowned the puppies and babies during the Flood?

who says they were angels?

The OT at times. What about the Angel of Death? Was that God too?

didn't miss it; agreed in a way, the Logos was responsible for all acts of God in the Old Testament-He had not yet been born as Jesus

So the entity later known as Jesus was a brutal killer in its first incarnation? Shocked

the Bible word is better translated messenger

Angels in the OT are cherubim, seraphim and possibly the Sons of God
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:32 am

Davelaw wrote:the Bible word is better translated messenger

Angels in the OT are cherubim, seraphim and possibly the Sons of God

Which messengers are you talking of then?

Dave, Dave, Dave ... why do you only answer some of the questions?

- The OT at times. What about the Angel of Death? Was that God too?
- So the entity later known as Jesus was a brutal killer in its first incarnation?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:33 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:Then it makes no sense; not every thing has to make sense. the Logos manifested itself as flesh; Flesh is limited God is unlimited; all of God could not be contained in a limited container.

So you're pulling the 'it's all a mystery' card already?? Laughing

But if the flesh is limited then how could this flesh named Jesus be unlimited? Or was Jesus limited?

the ubressurected Jesus was limited; He hungered, He got thirsty, He was emotional, and got tired

the resurrected Jesuswas the full manifestation of the Godhead no longer held back by human limitations
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:34 am

Davelaw wrote:the unressurected Jesus was limited; He hungered, He got thirsty, He was emotional, and got tired

the resurrected Jesus was the full manifestation of the Godhead no longer held back by human limitations

So the unresurrected Jesus did not equate to God?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:36 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the Bible word is better translated messenger

Angels in the OT are cherubim, seraphim and possibly the Sons of God

Which messengers are you talking of then?

Dave, Dave, Dave ... why do you only answer some of the questions?

- The OT at times. What about the Angel of Death? Was that God too?
- So the entity later known as Jesus was a brutal killer in its first incarnation?
I can't answe every question at once-it takes time


the Messenger of Death? it doesan't say that it was God per se; but there is no reason to believe it wasn't

and the brutal killer question is not worth answering-if you want to play the game there are a million similiar threads on Bnet- God is what he is; can't be pigeon holed by human reasoning
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:37 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the unressurected Jesus was limited; He hungered, He got thirsty, He was emotional, and got tired

the resurrected Jesus was the full manifestation of the Godhead no longer held back by human limitations

So the unresurrected Jesus did not equate to God?

again God was fully in Him; but the universe didn't cease to exist while Jesus slept
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:40 am

Davelaw wrote:

the Bible word is better translated messenger

Which raises another interesting question...why can't an all-powerful God simply communicate directly to people in whatever language they'll understand? Why did the so-called "Word of God" ever have to be written down or translated either one? After all, God spoke directly to Moses but then seemed to get rather skittish and engraved the ten commandments onto stone tablets for presentation to everyone else. This is GOD. Why so coy suddenly? It'd have made a lot more sense for God to have simply broadcast, "Listen here, all of you, I order you to obey these commandments...etc.," issuing direct personal reminders as required for those who disobeyed.
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:44 am

DotNotInOz wrote:
Davelaw wrote:

the Bible word is better translated messenger

Which raises another interesting question...why can't an all-powerful God simply communicate directly to people in whatever language they'll understand? Why did the so-called "Word of God" ever have to be written down or translated either one? After all, God spoke directly to Moses but then seemed to get rather skittish and engraved the ten commandments onto stone tablets for presentation to everyone else. This is GOD. Why so coy suddenly? It'd have made a lot more sense for God to have simply broadcast, "Listen here, all of you, I order you to obey these commandments...etc.," issuing direct personal reminders as required for those who disobeyed.

thats pretty much how its described in Exodus and Dueteronomy-God tries to give it direct to all Israel but they can't handle it-they know they are not worthy and are scared and frightened-so they ask Moses to be their middle man

and the concept of progressive revelation is that God want to write His word on our hearts and minds all along; but we were not ready-it took a fe wthousand years of maturation and exposure
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:00 am

Davelaw wrote:the Messenger of Death? it doesan't say that it was God per se; but there is no reason to believe it wasn't

Judging from the OT, the Messenger of Death was actually BibleGod himself. Or The Son in this case. Or proto-future-Jesus. Or whatever you want to call him.

and the brutal killer question is not worth answering-if you want to play the game there are a million similiar threads on Bnet- God is what he is; can't be pigeon holed by human reasoning

But you would agree that the being that later incarnated as Jesus was responsible for triggering the Flood as well as for all the other deaths by divine zapping recounted in the OT?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:00 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the unressurected Jesus was limited; He hungered, He got thirsty, He was emotional, and got tired

the resurrected Jesus was the full manifestation of the Godhead no longer held back by human limitations

So the unresurrected Jesus did not equate to God?

again God was fully in Him; but the universe didn't cease to exist while Jesus slept

Fully? I thought a limited vessel couldn't contain an unlimited God?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:04 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the unressurected Jesus was limited; He hungered, He got thirsty, He was emotional, and got tired

the resurrected Jesus was the full manifestation of the Godhead no longer held back by human limitations

So the unresurrected Jesus did not equate to God?

again God was fully in Him; but the universe didn't cease to exist while Jesus slept

Fully? I thought a limited vessel couldn't contain an unlimited God?

Consistency is the Hobgoblin of small minds

anything in Him was God; but God was still outside the vessel as well
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:05 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:the unressurected Jesus was limited; He hungered, He got thirsty, He was emotional, and got tired

the resurrected Jesus was the full manifestation of the Godhead no longer held back by human limitations

So the unresurrected Jesus did not equate to God?

again God was fully in Him; but the universe didn't cease to exist while Jesus slept

Fully? I thought a limited vessel couldn't contain an unlimited God?

Consistency is the Hobgoblin of small minds

anything in Him was God; but God was still outside the vessel as well

So he was God as much as the human vessel allowed him to be? But he was not totally God at that time?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:07 am

I don't if words can adequately describe the concept; but there IS more to God than what was contained in Jesus
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:08 am

Davelaw wrote:I don't if words can adequately describe the concept; but there IS more to God than what was contained in Jesus

I've got no trouble understanding that.

But the logical conclusion to this is that Jesus did not equate to the whole of God. He was a tiny, limited part of an unlimited God.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:09 am

not so tiny; but yes
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 am

Davelaw wrote:not so tiny; but yes

So Jesus is only a part of the unlimited God?

Jesus does not equate to the unlimited God?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

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