Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:40 am

The Trinity makes no rational, logical sense whatsoever.

And it's not even mentioned in the Bible.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:53 am

you can do better than that: the Old Testament mentions both the Father and the Spirit and mentions that God walked and talked on earth and yet says there is one God; the New specifically mentions all three: Father , Son and Spirit and proclaims them all as a God while still proclaiming One God-they don't have to spell it out
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:56 am

Davelaw wrote:you can do better than that: the Old Testament mentions both the Father and the Spirit and mentions that God walked and talked on earth and yet says there is one God; the New specifically mentions all three: Father , Son and Spirit and proclaims them all as a God while still proclaiming One God-they don't have to spell it out

There is no actual evidence that 'the spirit' mentioned in the OT is The Spirit from the NT, let alone the third person from the later invented Trinity.

Please do quote where the NT defines the Trinity. Thank you.

And again:

If The Son = God and The Father = God and The Spirit = God then The Son = The Father = The Spirit.

If not then God = The Son + The Father + The Spirit.

The idea, or claim, that these three entities are all BOTH one and separate is irrational and illogical.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:02 am

How is it irrational?

these could be relational- with the human analogy being a man who is a father, a son and a husband

or my view dexscriptive: the Father is God as percieved out side of time, the Spirit is within time as He works in the Spiritual realm; the Son , God as He works in the physical realm
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:05 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:you can do better than that: the Old Testament mentions both the Father and the Spirit and mentions that God walked and talked on earth and yet says there is one God; the New specifically mentions all three: Father , Son and Spirit and proclaims them all as a God while still proclaiming One God-they don't have to spell it out

There is no actual evidence that 'the spirit' mentioned in the OT is The Spirit from the NT, let alone the third person from the later invented Trinity.


what evidence are you looking for? Genesis says the Spirit of God moved on the face of the water-making a distinction from God as conceived in the first verse
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:06 am

why would the NT define the trinity?

the NT is a practical guide to Christian living; not a theological treatise
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:07 am

and why do the seraphim in Isaiah proclaim God's Holiness in threes?
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:43 am

Davelaw wrote:How is it irrational?

these could be relational- with the human analogy being a man who is a father, a son and a husband

However, that's not an apt analogy for the Trinity, Dave, when it's typically taught as being three entirely distinct beings who are nevertheless somehow an entity, not a single entity who relates to humankind by means of three different roles.

If we carry your analogy further, then the Pagan belief in multiple deities could easily be justified, since some Pagans believe that the multiple deities are simply aspects of a single encompassing deity. After all, we know that this man you cite is likely also someone's brother, brother-in-law, grandson, etc.

or my view dexscriptive: the Father is God as percieved out side of time, the Spirit is within time as He works in the Spiritual realm; the Son , God as He works in the physical realm

You're going to have to explain that one a lot further. Even though I was raised in a Trinitarian faith, I have no idea what it means to say "God as percieved out side of time." How could anyone pray to God the Father if this deity exists "outside of time," i.e. somehow beyond the arena of our human existence? All your view says to me is that God has three different areas of operation, "outside time, in the so-called spiritual realm and within the physical realm," which still doesn't explain the nature of the Trinity as three quite distinct beings who are at the same time One God.
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:04 am

Davelaw wrote:How is it irrational?

these could be relational- with the human analogy being a man who is a father, a son and a husband

So The Father, The Son and The Spirit are functions, or 'job descriptions', of the Godhead?

But if there is only ONE being then how can The Son talk or pray to The Father? Wouldn't he be talking to himself?

or my view dexscriptive: the Father is God as percieved out side of time, the Spirit is within time as He works in the Spiritual realm; the Son , God as He works in the physical realm

Where does the Bible describe it like this?

And, uh, the Father worked quite a lot in the physical realm according to the OT, no? Wink

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:05 am

I'm not Catholic or even High Church; so I'm not sure what they teach about the trinity. My low church understanding is one person with three roles.

God the Father is said in scripture to existed before time; Logos, Sophio and any other manifestations of God are described as being from the beginning ; whereas God the Father existed before the beginning.
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:06 am

Davelaw wrote:what evidence are you looking for? Genesis says the Spirit of God moved on the face of the water-making a distinction from God as conceived in the first verse

The word translated with 'spirit' is 'ruach'. And 'ruach' means a lot of things (breath, wind, spirit, mind), etc. There is NO indication in the OT that 'ruach' represents one element of a Trinity.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:07 am

Davelaw wrote:and why do the seraphim in Isaiah proclaim God's Holiness in threes?

Why not?

You're selectively filtering.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:08 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:How is it irrational?

these could be relational- with the human analogy being a man who is a father, a son and a husband

So The Father, The Son and The Spirit are functions, or 'job descriptions', of the Godhead?

But if there is only ONE being then how can The Son talk or pray to The Father? Wouldn't he be talking to himself?

you really thing a Divine being could put all of Himself in a human vessel?
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:10 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:How is it irrational?

these could be relational- with the human analogy being a man who is a father, a son and a husband

So The Father, The Son and The Spirit are functions, or 'job descriptions', of the Godhead?

But if there is only ONE being then how can The Son talk or pray to The Father? Wouldn't he be talking to himself?

you really thing a Divine being could put all of Himself in a human vessel?

So the human vessel did not equate to God?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:10 am

Celsus wrote:

And, uh, the Father worked quite a lot in the physical realm according to the OT, no? Wink

NO, the NT attributes that all to Christ; by Him was everything made that was made and by Him do all things consist-the Logos was the creator, the one who walked in the Garden; that chose Abraham and talked to Moses
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:11 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

And, uh, the Father worked quite a lot in the physical realm according to the OT, no? Wink

NO, the NT attributes that all to Christ; by Him was everything made that was made and by Him do all things consist-the Logos was the creator, the one who walked in the Garden; that chose Abraham and talked to Moses

So Jesus was YHWH and the LORD?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:11 am

Celsus wrote:

So the human vessel did not equate to God?

Like the Hindu concept of an Avatar-its all God but not all of God
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:12 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

And, uh, the Father worked quite a lot in the physical realm according to the OT, no? Wink

NO, the NT attributes that all to Christ; by Him was everything made that was made and by Him do all things consist-the Logos was the creator, the one who walked in the Garden; that chose Abraham and talked to Moses

So Jesus was YHWH and the LORD?

thats the conclusion of the NT
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:14 am

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:what evidence are you looking for? Genesis says the Spirit of God moved on the face of the water-making a distinction from God as conceived in the first verse

The word translated with 'spirit' is 'ruach'. And 'ruach' means a lot of things (breath, wind, spirit, mind), etc. There is NO indication in the OT that 'ruach' represents one element of a Trinity.

Nor is there any description that says it's not; the ruach of the Lord fits the concept
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:14 am

Davelaw wrote:How is it irrational?

these could be relational- with the human analogy being a man who is a father, a son and a husband

or my view dexscriptive: the Father is God as percieved out side of time, the Spirit is within time as He works in the Spiritual realm; the Son , God as He works in the physical realm

It's irrational in this concept.... You're misusing pronouns here. You can not physically be your own father. You can not be your own son, and you can not be your own husband. The Jesus is god concept has Jesus playing the role of both himself, as the son, and his very own father. Now how he becomes the spirit is anybody's guess . The spirit and biblegod being one and the same in the OT is a false conclusion. In this instance, it would be considered as the will, or the act of god. Not a distinct entity. In this case as the dictionary defines it: an attitude or principle that inspires, animates, or pervades thought, feeling, or action: the spirit of reform. And it is altogether possible, a separate being described as the biblegod did walk, and talk with humans. Pagans have always believed their gods consorted with mortals.

If you want to use bible quotes, Dave, grab a Catholic bible, and look up the Book of Wisdom It was deleted from the Protestant version (so much or not adding or taking away from). If you do, you will see that Wisdom, or Sophia in Greek and Chokemah in Hebrew is feminine gender, and was there in the beginning, and assisted with the creation of the world. So we have a Goddess in the mix. The idea of three different personalities, with different missions being only one person is irrational. And the concept isn't a New Testament one either. It was formed and made cannon after Christianity became a powerful political force, rather than a religious one in Constantine's Roman Empire.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:15 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

And, uh, the Father worked quite a lot in the physical realm according to the OT, no? Wink

NO, the NT attributes that all to Christ; by Him was everything made that was made and by Him do all things consist-the Logos was the creator, the one who walked in the Garden; that chose Abraham and talked to Moses

So Jesus was YHWH and the LORD?

thats the conclusion of the NT

So it was Jesus who drowned the puppies and babies during the Flood?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:16 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:

So the human vessel did not equate to God?

Like the Hindu concept of an Avatar-its all God but not all of God

That makes no sense.

Either the human vessel ('The Son') equated to God or he didn't.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:17 am

John i own a copy of the Jerusalem Bible its arrogance ats it worst to assume I'm not familiar with these concepts
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:17 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:what evidence are you looking for? Genesis says the Spirit of God moved on the face of the water-making a distinction from God as conceived in the first verse

The word translated with 'spirit' is 'ruach'. And 'ruach' means a lot of things (breath, wind, spirit, mind), etc. There is NO indication in the OT that 'ruach' represents one element of a Trinity.

Nor is there any description that says it's not; the ruach of the Lord fits the concept

It fits the concept because once one is free to define words as one likes, everything is possible! Laughing

Fact remains though that the Trinity is not mentioned in either the OT nor the NT. It's been a later invention to uphold the illusion of 'monotheism'.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:20 am

Fact remains the messengers of the Lord in the Old Testament were worshipped as God; the the Will Of God was seen as God


the trinity is merely a doctrinal statement clarifying something demonstrated throughout scripture
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

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