Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:35 pm

the Son and Logos are titles for the same person of th eDiety

Jesus was greek name of the human that embodied both Divine and human nature
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:37 pm

Davelaw wrote:the Son and Logos are titles for the same person of th eDiety

Jesus was greek name of the human that embodied both Divine and human nature

so now it's a 'person' of the deity, not a 'part'? or is that the same?

So Jesus was simply the name of the human vessel? And The Son is the divine part that was, uh, alive in that human vessel?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:39 pm

something like that; after resurrection Jesus and the Son are identical as He is no longer limited by Human flesh
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:39 pm

Davelaw wrote:something like that; after resurrection Jesus and the Son are identical as He is no longer limited by Human flesh

but before the resurrection Jesus and the Son were not identical?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:41 pm

Davelaw wrote:something like that; after resurrection Jesus and the Son are identical as He is no longer limited by Human flesh

Sorry, any excuse to put up a Sarah Silverman photo is good for me.

Jesus is magic!


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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:42 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:something like that; after resurrection Jesus and the Son are identical as He is no longer limited by Human flesh

but before the resurrection Jesus and the Son were not identical?

thats my belief; Jesus' human flesh could not contain the full divinity of the Son
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:46 pm

The resurrection of Jesus isn't in the oldest bible. It's pretty much a given that it is a later addition. Knowing that the Christians didn't believe that Jesus was resurrected until 300-400 years after the fact - does that affect in any way how you view it? Why do you think it was added?

Ed to add: I take it back. Some are missing and some are there, which I take to mean that they didn't all agree on it happening. It is missing from Mark but a little bit is in Matthew.


Last edited by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:49 pm

Paul wrote his letters about the resurrected Jesus way before the Gospel-care to revise your last comment?
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:55 pm

Yes, I did. It isn't in Mark apparently, but it is in Matthew. I take it they changed them so that they would all agree on the matter. And I realize that means there were groups that believed he was a man and those who saw him as a god. Book Q stuff.


Last edited by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:56 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:something like that; after resurrection Jesus and the Son are identical as He is no longer limited by Human flesh

but before the resurrection Jesus and the Son were not identical?

thats my belief; Jesus' human flesh could not contain the full divinity of the Son

So Jesus was only partially identical with The Son?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:58 pm

Davelaw wrote:Paul wrote his letters about the resurrected Jesus way before the Gospel-care to revise your last comment?

Paul's account of Jesus' resurrection is very different from those of the later Gospel authors though.

Paul does not mention a physical resurrection nor an empty tomb.

Paul also does not describe the 'risen Christ' as someone in a human form. Instead he describes him as a light, etc.

Paul obviously had visions. The later Gospel writers didn't even have that. Instead they misinterpreted the legends (and Paul's accounts) and thought there was a physical resurrection, an empty tomb, etc.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:00 pm

I find that a lot easier to buy, thanks, Celsus.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:03 pm

gillyflower wrote:I find that a lot easier to buy, thanks, Celsus.

It's quite obvious when you compare how Paul describes the 'risen Christ' with the Gospel's 'resurrected Jesus'.

And it's simply amazing how many off the Gospel elements are not used by Paul in his letters to illustrate his points to his new converts, even though they would have fitted perfectly. This is ample substance to the assumption that Paul didn't know these stories and that they were invented later (other examples: Doubting Thomas, the betrayal by Judas, etc).

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:06 pm

"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:08 pm

Davelaw wrote:"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus

Wrong. 'the night Jesus was DELIVERED'.

I did a thread on this over on BCorner. Should I restart it here?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:09 pm

Davelaw wrote:"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus

And don't forget this one:

So Jesus was only partially identical with The Son?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:12 pm

Yes, in the Codex Sinaiticus it is "delivered."

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=38&chapter=11&lid=en&side=r&verse=23&zoomSlider=0

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:00 pm

Davelaw wrote:John i own a copy of the Jerusalem Bible its arrogance ats it worst to assume I'm not familiar with these concepts

I fail to see how my suggested reading would be considered arrogant, much less arrogance at it's worst. It defies logic to try to understand what you know and accept versus what you don't accept based on your doctrinal teachings. Dave, it's almost as if you're doctrinal training weeds through all of the tons of information available in the bible alone, and culls what fits your needs, rather than using your own intellect to judge on your own. No amount of sophistication, or education makes up for accepting doctrine over evidence to the contrary.

Davelaw wrote:God is what he is; can't be pigeon holed by human reasoning

I haven't had time to read over everything you and Daldi have tossed back and forth, but in what little I have read, it seems that you've done a considerable amount of pigeon holing on your own. As an example, you use the word rouch as a term for spirit, and give at best a vague definition (if one can call it that) for spirit. You seem to be trying to suggest that one can adjust the definition to suit your doctrinal needs, and so far as I know (as I said, I haven't read all of the posts), you dodge the question of Jesus on the cross crying out to the father when Dot suggested that if Jesus was both human and god, he should have been saying "myself, myself". You've grasped at every doctrinal straw to justify the trinity as biblical where in fact, it's doctrinal. There is a vast difference between the two and you haven't managed (as far as my reading goes) to reconcile the two.

It would seem then that arrogance would be to know the vast differences between what is located in the scripture without the rationalization your doctrine tries to present, and simply accepting doctrine alone on some loosely contrived verbiage that can't be absolutely confirmed, but rather vaguely implied.

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:11 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus

Wrong. 'the night Jesus was DELIVERED'.

I did a thread on this over on BCorner. Should I restart it here?

paradidomi can be translated either way; but its funny you translate delivered / omit the Pastorals and then parade about that Paul doe snot mention a human Jesus-whereas if it betrayed and He's instituting the bread and wine as human ritual and then the Patorals suffers under Pontius Pilate-that is a very human Jesus
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Davelaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:12 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus

And don't forget this one:

So Jesus was only partially identical with The Son?

don't know what that means?
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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:31 pm

I'm sorry, but I had to post this upon reading this thread:

Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so
mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some
thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the
nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it?
It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so
therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.


- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams.


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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:40 pm

I was thinking of that same passage. LMAO!

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:49 pm

Well, we are siblings, aren't we? Wink

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:12 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus

Wrong. 'the night Jesus was DELIVERED'.

I did a thread on this over on BCorner. Should I restart it here?

paradidomi can be translated either way; but its funny you translate delivered / omit the Pastorals and then parade about that Paul doe snot mention a human Jesus-whereas if it betrayed and He's instituting the bread and wine as human ritual and then the Patorals suffers under Pontius Pilate-that is a very human Jesus

Ok, seems I have to restart that thread after all!

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

Post by Daldianus on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:12 am

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:"the night Jesus was betrayed"

Paul mentions this stuff in passing-its just not his focus

And don't forget this one:

So Jesus was only partially identical with The Son?

don't know what that means?

Did Jesus, the human vessel, EQUATE to The Son? Or was only part of the Son in Jesus?

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Re: Revisiting the Concept of the Trinity.

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