Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:23 am

I posted this on a purly christian site and was basically left with no real answer.

Moses was up on Mt. Sinai getting the "10 commandments", . . . the people were building a "golden calf" out of all the gold they took from the Egyptians, melting it down for the idol (I wonder how they built such a significant [large enough to cast the idol] furnace so quickly, but I digress),. . . so God told Moses that "his anger burned against them and he was going to go down and kill all of them", . . . but Moses talked God out of it.

Why did God say he was going to do something that he would have known he wasn't actually going to do? Why would he be mad when he knew he would relent (due to the words of a man)?
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:29 am

Another instance is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievousthat I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by MaineCaptain on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:37 am

I am not sure you will find the answer you are looking for here, but they are excellent questions, that I shall keep in mind. For my next debate with a Christian.

Welcome to the site by the way Smile

_________________
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.
avatar
MaineCaptain
Admin
Admin

Posts : 2869
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : New England

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:54 am

Thank you! It is good to be here. :-)
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by itty on Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:43 pm

Me, my take is a bit different. I don't think the story is literal. I also don't think the interpretation says anything about the God in question. It says a lot, to me, about how the people put the story together and then interpreted it. I think there are a lot of biblical stories that are like this.
avatar
itty

Posts : 235
Join date : 2009-05-08
Location : Middle of the MidWest

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:07 pm

Oh, absolutely. .. . . I suppose I should have worded the thread differently. I'm speaking more towards those who create such stories, not towards any deity. God may very well BE omniscient, . . . .but the men who wrote the biblical stories were not, . . . and placed certain characteristics upon the god they served FROM a human, primative mind. Just wanted to clear that up. Less about any actual deity, more about men and their stories. Smile
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Sakhaiva on Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:02 pm

DeavonReye wrote:I posted this on a purly christian site and was basically left with no real answer.

Moses was up on Mt. Sinai getting the "10 commandments", . . . the people were building a "golden calf" out of all the gold they took from the Egyptians, melting it down for the idol (I wonder how they built such a significant [large enough to cast the idol] furnace so quickly, but I digress),. . . so God told Moses that "his anger burned against them and he was going to go down and kill all of them", . . . but Moses talked God out of it.

Why did God say he was going to do something that he would have known he wasn't actually going to do? Why would he be mad when he knew he would relent (due to the words of a man)?

DeavonReye wrote:Another instance is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievousthat I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Hi Deavon Reye, nice to meet you.

You've posted three different scenarios: the Golden Calf, Sodom and Gomorrah and Ancient metallurgy. I think I'll save the metallurgy for another post and tackle Moses, God and the golden Calf.

Ok, so in the story we have Moses (who was a rather meek guy with a speech impediment) talking with the big G; creater of the universe. God's telling Moses that he's irked with the Tribe because, after bringing them out of slavery, the Tribe lost faith (this will be a common theme) and reverted to the religion of others (the golden calf) So now your question - why was a being so massive and powerful as God so easily talked out of spanking the Tribe by a little man like Moses?

Maybe we should rephrase the question by asking why God would allow Himself to appear to be persueded? We might also ask why I would allow myself to appear to be persueded by my kids, as certainly that happens. Personally I do not think that God let Himself be talked out of something any more than my kids talk me out of doing things. But that doesn't mean one has to rub this point in; it's okay that my kids think they talk me in/out of things just like it's okay for people to believe they can talk God in/out of things. Perhaps it's more than just 'okay' ... perhaps it is 'good' and part of our development and growth.

BTW, I'll give the same answer regarding Abraham/Lot/Sodom/Gomorah.... Abraham makes me smile in that story.

In any case, there's another story in the Bible about an encounter between God and another prophet, Elijah, that - I feel - gives us some enlightenment on El Elyon's nature (it's one of my favorite passages actually;one that comes to mind every time my feet hit the trails):

At the mountain of God, Horeb,
Elijah came to a cave, where he took shelter.
But the word of the LORD came to him,
“Go outside and stand on the mountain before the LORD;
the LORD will be passing by.”
A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains
and crushing rocks before the LORD—
but the LORD was not in the wind.
After the wind there was an earthquake—
but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake there was fire—
but the LORD was not in the fire.
After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound.
When he heard this,
Elijah hid his face in his cloak
and went and stood at the entrance of the cave.



So now I'll pose a question: why was God in the tiny whispering sound and not in the earthquake?
avatar
Sakhaiva

Posts : 737
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Sunny California

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:29 pm

Sakhaiva: "Alex, I'll take God and Moses for 400."

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Sakhaiva on Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:42 pm

sunny
avatar
Sakhaiva

Posts : 737
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Sunny California

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:58 pm

It's a very good question, and I am just not sure what the answer is. Do you have insight into your question?
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Vorrin on Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:01 pm

I have a point about the Moses and the Exodus. Historical evidence of this entire incident is sketchy at best. My question is this. From the biblical tellings the jews were in Egypt for several generations prior to the the Exodus. How were these "other" religions passed to the Jews that went with Moses ? Were there jews practicing these pagan religions the whole time ? were there non-jews that came along ?
avatar
Vorrin

Posts : 135
Join date : 2009-04-03
Location : Chicago

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Sakhaiva on Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:39 pm

Vorrin:

It's my understanding that the Tribe did not live in isolation. Quite the contrary.

So from what we can best guess, Abraham lived *about* 2000 bc. (there are no exact dates) and lived in a place called Ur (among the Chaldees) and later in a place called Canaan. One of his sons was Joseph who wound up in Egypt. For a good while, about 200 years, the Hebrews prospered.... but fast forward a bit and things change; Moses was born into a nation of slavery. (This is a common tale; outsiders move into a nation and start to prosper, soon people will rally against them; consider the saga of Chinese immigrants in California during the late 1800's)

To understand the meaning of Judaic stories passed through the ages, we need to learn more about the Canaans, the various waves of culture in Egypt, the people of Ur et al... only then will we really be able to grasp what it was that made El Shaddai so very angry when his peeps started making Golden Calfs or putting up Asherah poles. It's a lot of history to bite off and digest.

In short, Israel often lived among other, more powerful, empires; rarely did they make an empire of their own.
avatar
Sakhaiva

Posts : 737
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Sunny California

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Chokmah on Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:00 pm

Moses never existed but is a conglomeration of many personalities. The name 'Moses' is itself Egyptian and if anything, Moses was an Egyptian, probably a follower of the one god. The stories related above are not Christian in origin. Moses had many more than ten commandments and they were based upon rules and laws common to Babylon, Egypt, Canaan, etc..

In short these early stories are in the form of myth and form the basis of the myths that surround these early primitive people.
avatar
Chokmah

Posts : 87
Join date : 2009-08-01
Location : Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by LeahOne on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:40 am

Vorrin wrote:I have a point about the Moses and the Exodus. Historical evidence of this entire incident is sketchy at best. My question is this. From the biblical tellings the jews were in Egypt for several generations prior to the the Exodus. How were these "other" religions passed to the Jews that went with Moses ? Were there jews practicing these pagan religions the whole time ? were there non-jews that came along ?

According to the account in the Torah, it was something like 400 years between Abraham's Great-Grandson Joseph settling in Egypt (Abraham>Isaac>Jacob/Israel>Joseph +others). Why? Because YHVH was waiting for Moshe, a man who was so humble that his own descendants have no rank nor 'lineage' within Israel. (Cohanim are the descendants of Aharon, who like Moshe was of the tribe of Levi)

Those who went forth from Egypt included not only the Jews, but a 'mixed multitude' who had also been slaves - and possibly some Egyptians as well. If there were members of Abraham's people practicing other rites, the story doesn't exactly say - though there's a story about Rachel's bringing some 'househod god' idols along with her.... What IS clear is that before Sinai, there seems to have been no particular 'issue' with such behavior - but after the Covenant is established, it's a problem. And it's also clear that it's much less of a problem after the return from the Babylonian Exile. And the archaeological work at quite a few sites in C'na'an/Yisroel does bear this out, in terms of an absence of pig bones, etc.

Remember that other tribes in the area were related to Abraham's family: Ishmael and Esau both began their own nations, and Moshe's wife came form the tribe of Midian (near Egypt). Again, archaeological work seems to indicate the peoples throughout this area were all of very similar cultures.

LeahOne

Posts : 135
Join date : 2009-04-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by LeahOne on Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:03 pm

Chokmah wrote:Moses never existed but is a conglomeration of many personalities. The name 'Moses' is itself Egyptian and if anything, Moses was an Egyptian, probably a follower of the one god. The stories related above are not Christian in origin. Moses had many more than ten commandments and they were based upon rules and laws common to Babylon, Egypt, Canaan, etc..

In short these early stories are in the form of myth and form the basis of the myths that surround these early primitive people.

There's no knowing whether a or several Moshes existed. That's pure speculation, of course.
Yet even had Moshe been the actual biological son of Pharaoah's daughter - when he led the Israelites and the 'mixed multitude' to Sinai to make the covenant with GOD, he of course was a Jew. He, like Ruth later, quite publically demonstrated 'Thy people shall be my people, and thy GOD my GOD' - words or ceremony would be redundant.

And yes, of course the stories from the Jewish Scriptures are 'not Christian in origin', so it's entirely possible that Christians would have a different view of GOD. (I would be cautious in using the Christian 'OT' as a source for Jewish concepts - or the NT, for that matter!)

"Moses had many more than ten commandments and they were based upon rules and laws common to Babylon, Egypt, Canaan, etc" - Yes and no. The text describes the mitzvot as 'coming from GOD through the hand of Moshe'. The 613 mitzvot are not all of a class: some are unknown elsewhere, some are OPPOSITE of the culture and practices of other tribes in the area. And some read like a copy of Hammurabi or similar. (Nu, we should expect a complete departure from other Semitic nations?)

Myths are not inended to be taken as historic fact - and indeed these myths are not taken as 'historic fact' by Jews, nor is there suggestion in the commentaries to indicate such was EVER the case.

I don't know on what basis Chokmah is using the word 'primitive' above - but I am not certain it's the best word to describe people who built the Pyramids - or people who acknowledged the ONE and set out to build their culture around the more ethical treatment of one another (viz, 'Do not opress the stranger among you, for ye were once strangers in a strange land'....) If by 'primitive' one means 'pioneering', I suppose that the word does fit.

LeahOne

Posts : 135
Join date : 2009-04-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Ken on Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:54 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Why did God say he was going to do something that he would have known he wasn't actually going to do? Why would he be mad when he knew he would relent (due to the words of a man)?
That's easy. He didn't know he would relent. The God of the early books of the Old Testament was not yet an omniscient god. He was still very much like the Zeus of Greek mythology - a being of superior rather than superlative knowledge, power, and skill. Omniscience wasn't attributed to him until later, when it was too late to change the sacred stories.
avatar
Ken

Posts : 53
Join date : 2009-07-07
Location : Pittsburgh

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Davelaw on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:25 pm

Ken wrote:
DeavonReye wrote:Why did God say he was going to do something that he would have known he wasn't actually going to do? Why would he be mad when he knew he would relent (due to the words of a man)?
That's easy. He didn't know he would relent. The God of the early books of the Old Testament was not yet an omniscient god. He was still very much like the Zeus of Greek mythology - a being of superior rather than superlative knowledge, power, and skill. Omniscience wasn't attributed to him until later, when it was too late to change the sacred stories.

thats one theory; another one is God is slowly educating us in the concept of grace
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:59 am

I don't see "grace" in the scenario at all. I see hot anger and vengence being calmed by the words of a man. . . . . . . . .who interestingly sees it later, and calls for killing, and some 3,000-ish being killed. Regardless, IF God knew he wasn't going to, . . . is it "speaking an untruth" if he says he will, . . . when he knows he wasn't going to?
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Davelaw on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:27 pm

but you are seeing from Moses' POV

God doesn't tell every thing He knows

He might tell you that death is deserved for all ; and then let you "talk" Him out of it-because you are a member of Bedouin tribe that doesn't even have a word for sorry, apology, or forgiveness

its a take on the concept of progressive revelation

under this theory God reveals himself as a "man of war"-because thats all this tribe knows
as their understanding progresses-the same God will reveal-i don't really desire sacrifice what i want is a contrite heart that shows mercy to others
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:59 pm

Yeah, I've never understood that. God doesn't desire sacrifice, but did set it up, right? Or, as I suspect, people set up these practices, thinking it was what God wanted, when it really wasn't.

As for the OP topic, I personally don't believe the event ever even happened, . . . and if it did, not at all as described. And since men WERE very war like, back then, . . . it would be all they knew.
avatar
DeavonReye

Posts : 769
Join date : 2009-06-15
Location : SW MO

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:19 pm

Scriptures of any religion represent the writers' best understanding and transmission of the inspiration they received.

Consequently, "God's Word" is filtered through very human understandings, written in often easily misunderstood language, and for us today, translated so frequently that the original meaning is long gone.

So, being a scriptural literalist is chancy at best if you claim that such texts are direct communications from whatever deities you favor.
avatar
DotNotInOz

Posts : 2795
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : St Louis MO burb

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Ken on Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:39 pm

Davelaw wrote:but you are seeing from Moses' POV

God doesn't tell every thing He knows

He might tell you that death is deserved for all ; and then let you "talk" Him out of it-because you are a member of Bedouin tribe that doesn't even have a word for sorry, apology, or forgiveness


It seems to me that if an all-powerful God wanted people to have the concept of forgiveness, he could teach them that concept in a single generation. After all, even today children learn it afresh in just a few years.
avatar
Ken

Posts : 53
Join date : 2009-07-07
Location : Pittsburgh

Back to top Go down

Re: Instances where God seems to be NON-omniscent....

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum