Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Go down

Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by tmarie64 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:12 pm

For a long time there has been argument, discussion, etc over high speed chases...
Car hits Philly crowd, killing 3 kids; mom injured

High speed chase... car jumps curb, crashes into crowd. All 3 kids under 10.

Now, that leads to this story... follow up on first one...
Men who caused Philly crash had long rap sheets

Ok.... Now... Should these men be held COMPLETELY responsible for the crash? I mean, yes, they stole a car. The cops did not know about their rap sheets when chasing them. When should the chase be stopped? Aren't the cops, at least, partially responsible? It's a motorcycle for Christ's sake! Yes, stolen at gunpoint, but no one was injured by the theft... At least not until hot rod cops who just could not stop pursuit got into the chase.
Yes, the criminals should pay, and pay dearly. BUT... When is someone going to call the police down? How many innocent bystanders have to be killed in (in many cases) unnecessary high speed chases before they realize... "Duh.. maybe this ain't the best way"...?
Police say the victims are 22-year-old Latoya Smith, her 11-month-old daughter, a 7-year-old girl and a 6-year-old girl. All three children were killed in Wednesday night's crash. Latoya Smith died Thursday.

The chase began with a report of two men stealing a motorcycle. One man fled on the motorcycle, the other in a car.

Police were pursuing the car when it crashed.

They stole the bike... In the time the cops chased the CAR, they couldn't get a license plate? They had to chase this guy through residential areas at high speeds? Was it THAT important?

I'm undecided here, folks. I'm not taking anyone's side... I just want to know how many of us, innocent, law abiding people have to be killed before someone realizes that heavy handed is not always best.

_________________
"Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened."
— Dr. Seuss
avatar
tmarie64
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1903
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Richmond, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by maya3 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:33 pm

What are rap sheets?

Maya
avatar
maya3
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 398
Join date : 2009-04-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by tmarie64 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:41 pm

Criminal records.

_________________
"Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened."
— Dr. Seuss
avatar
tmarie64
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1903
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Richmond, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:44 pm

I admit I'm going on having not read these stories and just on police chases in general.

It's my opinion theives commit burglary and run believing they won't get caught, and that's my biggest pet peeve - so I'm of the opinion police - and the public - should persue until apprehended. For example, my aunt worked for a shoe store in a mall about 20 years ago and a woman tried to run out smuggling shoes, and she chased her all the way through the mall shouting for someone to stop her - and eventually a person tripped the thief and she fell. I know she wasn't planning on being chased, much less apprehended...thieves usually know the chase isn't worth the effort involved so feel free to do as they please.

It gives me a boost of great satisfaction when a thief is chased and apprehended when they do their crime believing they can get away with it (so do it because "they can"). Hence I am generally for police chases. I am sorry however when innocent folks are caught in the way.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by itty on Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:55 pm

I don't know if I am remembering right but it seems to me that about twenty years ago or so the CA police put rules and guidelines with tespect to chases becuase so many innocent bystnaders died as a result. I agree that t he perps need to be apprehended and brought to justice. I hate people stealing and getting away with it.

I also don't like the idea of our police being part of high speed chases that kill people that weren't part of the problem or the chase. There has to be a better way. What it is, I don't know.

I do know that on the CA freeways the cops use various methods, including nail strips, to stop people who are involved in high speed chases. They also block freeways, box the perps and do other things. In the east I don't know how feasible that is. Older freeways and turnpikes, narrower streets. just don't know. It was tragic. But what is the alternative? Do we kill thirteen people to apprehend the bad guy?

This reminds me of the 72 year old woman that was tasered. She sure wasn't the nicest person in the world but is tasering her the right answer?

I have issues here about just who is acting in the bublic interest. itty is conflicted, very much so.
avatar
itty

Posts : 235
Join date : 2009-05-08
Location : Middle of the MidWest

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:40 pm

We all are.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:56 pm

Well, there are a few things that go through my head when I read something like this.

The first is that you cannot out-run a radio. Have them block off cross streets away from congested areas, and run them into a dead end, or some tire spike stripes or something.

Secondly, I can't believe that Philly would not have police helicopters. Hell, Lincoln Ne has police helicopters. Chase them without chasing them. Be smarter than they are.

Third, contrary to popular belief, and what the ideas that they try to promote, it is not the job of the police to prevent crime, or protect potential victims. It is their job to catch criminals.

It's a cold, hard world we live in folks.

all
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by tmarie64 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:11 pm

TED, I work at Lowes... If I see someone walking out, stealing merchandise, I can be fired for stopping the person. I can be fired for calling the police.
There are VERY FEW people who can do that. The LP (loss prevention specialist), Store Manager, Operations manager, and whatever other managers are trained.
ONLY the LP and SM are authorized to call the police.
I have had people just stroll past me with weed eaters, one guy walked out with TWO chain saws.
This policy, while silly on its face, is designed to keep the innocents from being hurt.

All... the police motto is "To protect and serve"... Protection means trying not to have collateral damage just so they can make a bust.
I would MUCH rather know that these babies were saved because the cops decided not to chase the idiot into a residential neighborhood.
Like you said... "You can't outrun a radio"... Why can't the cops figure that out?

_________________
"Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened."
— Dr. Seuss
avatar
tmarie64
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1903
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Richmond, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:38 pm

I agree Marie. If you get a chance though, ask one of them. Ask them if their job is to prevent crime, or to catch criminals. If their job was really to protect, it would be to prevent crime, for you can't have a criminal or a victim unless a crime has been committed. However, their job is to catch the criminal, which by default means that a crime has already been committed, which also means that there is a victim that they did not protect.

The case can be made that they are protecting society as a whole by catching those who have already taken actions to harm its population, but that is little consolation to those who are already harmed. The hard truth is that, on an individual basis, we are responsible for our own protection.

I'm not advocating that it should be different, I don't think we want that alternative, but these are the limits of the system we live in.

all
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by wmdkitty on Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:19 pm

And then there are cases where the cops, like the goggles, did NOTHING, and let the perp walk free to reoffend. (This happens a lot in domestic violence calls; guess who gets to pay for it later....)
avatar
wmdkitty

Posts : 625
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Bellingham, WA

http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:39 pm

Argh - I know your frustration at Lowes. (I just left Homo Depot myself, needed plants). Wal-Marts are the same way, where I used to work. Admittedly we bent the rules a bit there and I helped LP when corporate wouldn't have liked. I understand their "we can't afford to get sued" policy yet I hate it - and I hate our litigious society that CAN and will sue over anything and everything. With a passion. I even signed up on SickOfLawsuits. Any store associate should be able to apprehend a customer based on reasonable suspicion until the arrival of LP or the police department condemns or clears them...period.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:42 pm

We had a situation here, not that long ago, where a cop gave chase, the guy ran, and the cop t-boned someone else, killing the cop and the innocent bystander. The courts charged the guy with murder. I just thought that was wrong. I mean, if the guy (who was on a motorcycle) had hit someone and killed them, it would make sense to me, but when a chase rolls out of the cop's driving skill level, then he is just asking for a Darwin Award to keep going.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:36 pm

If police chases can be stopped by endangering the public, the criminals will know that endangering the public ensures their safety. Remember the criminals involved began by using deadly weapons against the innocent to begin the chase, if you teach them that in order to avoid the police you must put the public at risk, exactly what do you think they will do when next attempting escape?

If you commit a crime, and in the ensuing response to the crime somebody dies, they have died because of your choice to commit a crime. That is murder. The criminal that chose to steal the car, motorcycle or whatever had accepted the responsibility for all possible consequences when they did so. Let them rot in jail, or swing from the highest tree is someone is accidentally killed in the pursuit, or keels over from excitement when the chase passes them.

Let those who flee the law know they will suffer tenfold for their flight than they would had they stood and surrendered when summoned to do so. Let them know that flight brings no further punishment, and a chance of escape, and the criminals will cheerfully lead the car chase through a kindergarten classroom if they think it will get them off a parole violation, let alone a new conviction.

I am not a cop. My wife suffered an attempted carjacking, and when I responded I came armed. When the police who arrived later asked why, I let them know I was not planning on arresting the thief had he not fled fast enough. The ambulance was still attending my wife. The police just told me "yeh, I get that."

_________________
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall."
avatar
John T Mainer
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1004
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Maple Ridge, BC Can

http://community.bc-freehold.org/news.php

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:42 pm

The guy I mention ran because he had a little pot on him. He had no priors. Sometimes, the cops get a little overzealous, in my opinion.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:48 pm

John, I have to say that I agree 100% with you. I certainly don't always but word for word I'll back you on this one.

That's not to say, of course, that I feel any less sorry for the bystanders who don't move fast enough or are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I've never thought about nail strips - that kind of thing would never work where I live (however, neither do police chases, the mountains aren't made for that). If there's a safer option ('copters, nail strips, etc.) they should be utlized first but never should a criminal be allowed to escape because he can hold the public's safety in hostage.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:57 pm

Our criminals have learned that endangering the public gets the chase called off. As a result, we have many deaths from people attempting to endanger the public, often long after the chase was called off. They just don't care.

Most of these people have only minor records, one dragged a local boy for a few kilometers under the hood of his car to get away from stealing about ten dollars worth of gas. Of course he could care less about some poor kid dieing screaming under his car, as long as he got away. The utter willingness to kill for shite and giggles, for ten dollars in gas, for a minivan with 300000km on it, for a bicycle they will sell for scrap metal, is exactly what constitutes their threat to society. It is not that the people running from the police are wanted murderers, its that they are so willing to risk killing to avoid a month or less in prison. If it was only notorious killers who tried car chases, there would be hardly any casualties, but with every drugged out moron trying it, the breakage is getting pretty tragic. Innocents are dying for the convenience of criminals, this should never profit the criminals. It is the job of the police is to hunt down and trap such predators upon their own species; it is for the courts to determine how seriously they are to be treated.

_________________
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall."
avatar
John T Mainer
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1004
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Maple Ridge, BC Can

http://community.bc-freehold.org/news.php

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:02 pm

Shoot to kill.



When that (runaway) kid came knocking on my door on the farm in the middle of nowhere at 11pm you better believe I came out like Madea ready to blow someone away.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by wmdkitty on Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:10 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:The guy I mention ran because he had a little pot on him. He had no priors. Sometimes, the cops get a little overzealous, in my opinion.

The "War" on drugs is a joke, and cases like the one you mentioned serve to illustrate just how bloody moronic it is to arrest people for truly victimless "crimes".

Now, if he were driving under the influence of marijuana, I'd say arrest him for DUI, same as you would with a drunk.
avatar
wmdkitty

Posts : 625
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Bellingham, WA

http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by maya3 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:48 am

I think that they can be overzealous.
I have to say that the Police in NYC can be very scary, honestly often complete a...holes.
They do not let you speak to explain yourself at all just use their voice of authority to overwhelm you. It's terrible.
I've experienced it first hand because of a wrong turn in the car.
Now I'm not saying that all police are like this, I've met nice ones too.

Maya
avatar
maya3
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 398
Join date : 2009-04-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Two stories here... Are the perps totally responsible?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum