Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

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Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:40 pm

Pharmacist who shot robber charged with murder
Confronted by two holdup men, pharmacist Jerome Ersland pulled a gun, shot one of them in the head and chased the other away.
Ok, I read that line and thought... "So why the murder charge? Sounds like self defense..." THEN I read (as Paul Harvey was famous for saying) The REST of the story...
Then, in a scene recorded by the drugstore's security camera, he went behind the counter, got another gun, and pumped five more bullets into the wounded teenager as he lay on the floor. ...
"His adrenaline was going. You're just thinking of survival," said John Paul Hernandez, 60, a retired Defense Department employee who grew up in the neighborhood. "All it was is defending your employee, business and livelihood. If I was in that position and that was me, I probably would have done the same thing."

District Attorney David Prater said Ersland was justified in shooting 16-year-old Antwun Parker once in the head, but not in firing the additional shots into his belly. The prosecutor said the teenager was unconscious, unarmed, lying on his back and posing no threat when Ersland fired what the medical examiner said were the fatal shots.

So... discuss... I say throw the book at him. Shooting an unarmed, unconscious "assailant"... He STOPPED being an assailant once he lost consciousness...

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:46 pm

I'd like to think I wouldn't have done that. I don't really know, I get REALLY angry at robbers and attempted robbers (God help one if they try to rob me) so if one was down I guess I understand the possibility of snapping. Though like I said, I'd like to think I wouldn't snap.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:12 pm

One thing that leaps to my mind.... Would he have been as quick to do this if it had been a white boy lying there....

I don't think I could actually, intentionally, kill someone for trying to rob me. I'd shoot, if I killed'im then that's it. But I really don't think I could shoot him, go around the counter, get ANOTHER gun, and come back and shoot him five more times. If I was gonna do it, I'd pull the trigger five times right away.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:37 pm

I don't know what I have done. I've thought of that happening to me - me hurting someone who is trying to hurt me... We've all see so many horror pictures where the person only thinks the assailant is unconscious and the minute they turn their backs the guy goes after them again.

I don't think that I'm the only woman who has wondered what to do next. Bend down (and make yourself vulnerable) to see if they are really unconscious? Run like hel and wonder if they'll come after you before you can get to safety?

I can see someone make a poor choice when they are high on adrenalin and very scared.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:33 pm

He wasn't some unknowing person. He was a pharmacist. He has had training and knew that kid was shot in the head.
If he was so scared... why take the time to go get another gun? Why not continue to cap him with the one that was already in his hand?
The fact that he that he only shot once with the "little" gun, then had the wherewithal to go get another one is what got him a murder arrest. If he had kept pulling the trigger on the gun he ALREADY HAD... but he didn't. He went to retrieve another gun. He was thinking, not acting out of instinct.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:38 pm

He didn't snap. It was very deliberate. This is one of those stories where, when it first appeared on tv, we were all saying "please let it be somewhere other than oklahoma. please let it be somewhere other than oklahoma."

Then the reporter said it was on the southside. And both my husband and I said "dammit!"

If you watch the video (and I have) he wasn't afraid of the kid. He shoots the kid in the head (justified) and chases the other kid out of the pharmacy with the gun (also justified). He unloaded the gun while chasing the other kid (debatable). Then he comes back into the pharmacy, steps over the kid on the ground, turns his back to the kid. He is clearly, clearly unconcerned that the kid is going to get up and hurt him. He then sets the gun onto the counter, and reaches over the counter and grabs a second gun and walks over to the kid and unloads it into the kids gut. It was revenge, pure as the yellow snow.

The kid would have lived if not for the gutshot. He would have lived, recovered in the hospital and gone to jail and we would have forgotten about it. Now if the guy had dryclicked his first gun into the kid and the kid died because of that, then this guy would have been a hero. But about 5 minutes after the thing starts, this guy pulls out another gun. Only then does he call the cops. And that, my friends, is why we have a murder case on our hands.

http://newsok.com/news/pharmacyshootings
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by gillyflower on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:05 pm

Well, then I guess we didn't have all the facts.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:08 pm

Hee! We've been following this story a lot longer. Afterall, it happened here. Smile
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:12 pm

I have actually been talking about this with a few of my concealed carry buddies. Some of whom have actually killed in self defense. I have yet to hear anyone who says that this was justified.

When you are carrying a weapon for self defense, you are held to a higher standard. You do not shoot to kill, you do not shoot out of revenge or anger, or any other emotion.

You shoot to eliminate the threat. The kid who ran out is no longer an immediate threat, so you don't chase him. It is a human and somewhat understandable reaction to do so. I can forgive that.

What is not ok is to grab another weapon and use lethal force on someone who is no longer a threat at all.

Personally, I hope they throw the book at the guy, he doesn't deserve to carry.

And this is from someone who carries at least one weapon at all times.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:19 pm

Well, when you look at what he told the cops and the media, versus what is shown to have happened on the video, it is clear he know what he did was wrong.
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:25 pm

He should.

My biggest problem with all this is that it makes the rest of us look bad.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:27 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:He should.

My biggest problem with all this is that it makes the rest of us look bad.

all

You?


It makes all of Oklahoma look like a bunch of jerks!!!!! Angry
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:51 pm

Well, for what it's worth... I don't think any less of OK in general. He is just one of those extreme jerk-offs. Every state, religion, culture, school, group, club... has them.
I know people who would do the same thing this murdering ass did.

I'm still wondering if he would have been quite so quick to kill if it had been a little white boy...
It's been my experience that anyone as tied up in guns as this guy is, is also quite racist...

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:02 pm

I doubt if it will be placed on Oklahoman's, I bet someone says something about gun owners.



Quite possibly in this very thread.......
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by Feinics on Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:08 pm

I was gonna say this story makes me glad that we have so few guns allowed over here! does that count?Smile


Last edited by Feinics on Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:05 pm

You make sure they don't get back up; the assailant wasn't getting back up. In my opinion it was murder plain and simple, justice is setting the scales back to balanced; revenge is making yourself feel better. There is no honour in that.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:40 am

On the other hand... I am SICK and TIRED of hearing what "a good boy" the little punk robber was.
Momma is blaming everyone BUT her 16 year old son for his actions.

If he'd been so damned good, he wouldn't have been there to get shot in the first place.

Yes, he was murdered... BUT he chose to go along with a robbery. Death is a very big part of crime.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:25 am

tmarie64 wrote:On the other hand... I am SICK and TIRED of hearing what "a good boy" the little punk robber was.
Momma is blaming everyone BUT her 16 year old son for his actions.

If he'd been so damned good, he wouldn't have been there to get shot in the first place.

Yes, he was murdered... BUT he chose to go along with a robbery. Death is a very big part of crime.

I'm tired of this too, but I'm also tired of the labeling of gun owners as extreme radicals with agendas.

We don't need stricter gun laws, we need to enforce the ones that we already have. Law abiding gun owners already comply with these laws voluntarily, criminals do not. Criminals will continue to not comply with gun laws, and there will be underground groups supplying those who are willing to not comply with the laws. I don't remember the IRA fighting with pointy sticks.

The non-felon, non-mentally ill person of legal age who has passed multiple background checks and jumped through numerous hoops to be in compliance with various rules and regulations is not your enemy. In fact, if need be, he or she will come to your aid. He or she will do their best to defend you from those who are attacking. And it is the legal gun owner that is disarmed by further regulations. Is this really a step you want to take?

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:26 am

There were no innocents here. Sad to say.
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:54 am

sacrificialgoddess wrote:There were no innocents here. Sad to say.

Agreed. And all had to, or have to pay for the consequences of their actions.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:39 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
tmarie64 wrote:On the other hand... I am SICK and TIRED of hearing what "a good boy" the little punk robber was.
Momma is blaming everyone BUT her 16 year old son for his actions.

If he'd been so damned good, he wouldn't have been there to get shot in the first place.

Yes, he was murdered... BUT he chose to go along with a robbery. Death is a very big part of crime.

I'm tired of this too, but I'm also tired of the labeling of gun owners as extreme radicals with agendas.

We don't need stricter gun laws, we need to enforce the ones that we already have. Law abiding gun owners already comply with these laws voluntarily, criminals do not. Criminals will continue to not comply with gun laws, and there will be underground groups supplying those who are willing to not comply with the laws. I don't remember the IRA fighting with pointy sticks.

The non-felon, non-mentally ill person of legal age who has passed multiple background checks and jumped through numerous hoops to be in compliance with various rules and regulations is not your enemy. In fact, if need be, he or she will come to your aid. He or she will do their best to defend you from those who are attacking. And it is the legal gun owner that is disarmed by further regulations. Is this really a step you want to take?

all

Exactly. And, like Gilly, I didn't have all the facts when I said I wasn't sure what I would do - I can be pretty sure I wouldn't have done what this guy did though!

What gun control freaks (the ones like some people I know who think what a "great!" idea it would be to get rid of all guns) don't grasp is that the law-abiding citizens who use guns to protect themselves would hand them over, while criminals would seize the opportunity to knowingly attack unarmed familes.

As I told one of them, if you make guns illegal, you may as well make crack cocaine and prostitution illegal too while you're at it. What? It already is? Then why are people still using crack? Why do I check in 5 hookers a night? Oh, that's right, not everyone follows all the rules.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:12 pm

That is an excellent comparison Joseph.

Very Happy
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:30 pm

Why thank you sir. It's just common sense though. There's been quite a few times guns have saved the lives of those I care about while used defensively - though of course that doesn't make the news. People really should think.

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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by itty on Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:19 pm

I think the store owner, after deliberately getting another gun then killing a man who was not threatening him at that point, should be tried for murder.

I also think I would be one of the people who would be a responsible, safe and contientious gun owner. I sure hope so. I have what would probably be counted as an arsenal. All legally owned, all in appropriately locked gun cabinets with appropriate safety locks which are stored separately from the ammunition. (Children in the house.)

The old adage that guns don't kill people, people kill people, is, I think true. Very true. When those of us who own guns also haven't taken the time to educate ourselves on real gun safety and real consequences of what we, as normal and good people, do in what may be a life and death situation can be tragic. That happens more often than many of us know.

I think we have more than enough laws on the books pertaining to weapons. I think we do have the right to keep and bear arms. I think we also need to be pretty well educated about what happens when guns and people who are not so educated combine them.

I was raised in the midwest. Raised in a family where hunting was a way of life. I grew up around guns. I was taught safety from the time I can remember. I also know that it can be tragic. It almost was for me and my cousin.

When I was a child I almost shot one of my cousins. I was about five and so was he. We were at my parents house. My cousin and I, five year old children, got into an arguement. My cousin got mad, grabbed a very, large piece of pipe and went around the corner of a shed to hide so that when I came around the corner I was going to get slammede in the head with it. I saw the pipe sticking out up above the shed and decided to get him before he hit me.

I went to the pickup parked by the house, opened the door, got behind the seat and got out the loaded rifle that my father carried there. I then was heading to go around the house and shot my cousin before he hit me. Fortunately my dad saw something that got his attention. He got to me and took the gun from me before i could shoot. It could have been tragic.

My father WAS a contientious gun owner. Every other gun in the house was unloaded with the ammo stored separately. He left that rifle, a small .22 dad used to hunt rabbits with behind the seat because dad thought I was too young enough to know and remember that the gun was there. He was wrong and had he not seen what was happening it might have been my then five year old cousin that was dead wrong and I would have been the other five year old kid that carried that burden for the rest of my life. It never and I mean NEVER happened again. That was over forty years ago and from that time there has never been a loaded gun on the property.

We can argue this one until the cows come home. The bottom line is that people who are good, safe, contientious gun owners can and do make mistakes. I don't blame the guns, those of us who own htem or the society that makes them available. I don't have an answer here. I know I don't want my guns taken from me. I als know that we have to have good education about the consequences.
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Re: Ummmm... Yeah, I think murder would be the appropriate charge...

Post by tmarie64 on Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:33 pm

This guy certainly did not help the gun lobby. Unfortunately, it's the same with just about every group... you only hear about the extremists and the bad ones.
Teens... do you read headlines about honor students graduating and helping in their communities? Nope. it's all about the dopers and the ones who shoot up their schools.
Gun owners... do you read headlines about the ones who NEVER pull their guns, except at the target range? Nope, it's all about the criminals, racists, separtists, and idiots like this guy.
You seldom read about the gun owner who saved someone's life because he shot a felon. It's always about the ones like the guy in the story... the extreme nutbar, who is probably racist.

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